Cautious Clay (Deadpan Love) On Having A Public Identity And Staying Authentic
Episode Description
Joshua Karpeh, more widely known as Cautious Clay, is a producer, multi-instrumentalist, and singer-songwriter from Cleveland, OH, and currently based in Brooklyn, NY. His music mixes hip-hop and r&b, and blends organic and electronic instrumentation to create a unique sound.
He’s collaborated with musicians like Taylor Swift, John Mayer, Billie Eillish, and more and has released three EPs, Bloodtype, Resonance, and Table of Context. Most recently he released his debut album, Deadpan Love.
We talked with Karpeh about who he is apart from Cautious Clay and how music helps him express himself.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can follow Cautious Clay here.
Visit Cautious Clay’s website here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:19
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm with my co host, then Thor. And today we have cautious clay. He is a producer, multi instrumentalist, singer songwriter from Cleveland, Ohio, but lives in Brooklyn, New York now. Man, I was so excited to get the confirmation email on this one. I love cautious clays music and Damn, this was this was a this really, really exciting, I'm interested Ben, what were some things that you were really drawn to in this conversation?
Ben 1:01
You know, I think one of the big things that that stood out to me is this. You know, he talked about kind of being a private person, which is a thing that you I feel like maybe don't expect, in some ways from someone who's like, like, pretty big, like cautious is. And so he kind of touched on this idea of like, finding ways to be vulnerable in his music, because he feels like he's not the kind of person who can maybe say this stuff straight up. And so finding a way to kind of express himself in these ways and maybe say the things that he can't say, in person through the music. And that was a theme that we kind of came back to a couple of times, and definitely something that I was like, huh, like makes me think I think especially as you know, Phil, the last couple of interviews, we've been talking to musicians and like, trying to understand like, how they see music, and like what music lets them do. And I think we're maybe coming back to this idea that we heard from Steven, which is like finding a way to understand the things that he's feeling through his music, which is the way that Steven kind of frames it. And I think cautious, very similarly is kind of getting at this like, finding just a way to express and say the things that he can't maybe otherwise through music.
Phil 2:19
Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, it's like, you know, cautious clay just released his first debut album, deadpan love, he's released a bunch of EPS prior to that. So he's like, been around the block for a while. But now I was really, like taken aback by this album, I think it came at a really great time where, you know, we've been working on this podcast, we've been working on other creative things. And it was like a moment of reflection, I think and thinking about, you know, why I create the things that I do? And why do I use the medium that I do, like, in a lot of ways, you know, I mainly write nonfiction. And I always have said that, like, I'm not somebody who's like, super reactive. I'm somebody who, like, it takes up it takes a while for me to understand what I'm thinking and what I'm understanding. And, you know, writing is a really good way for me to kind of grapple with or unpack some of those things. And it was kind of nice to talk to. cautious because it seems like he's that way too.
Ben 3:20
Yeah. 100%.
Phil 3:22
So that wasn't Yeah, and
Ben 3:22
then we also, you know, the other pieces, like, Why is his clay, in fact, so cautious? You know, we kind of got into this idea of like, the performer identity, and like, why that's there. And, and I think the other idea that he's definitely going to stick with me is this idea of, you know, feel when you're writing or when we're, we're both writing, we're thinking about kind of exposing ourselves in some ways, which is like, when people read they need, they almost need that vulnerability, or they need that thing where they feel like there may be accessing you in some ways. And he talks about this grappling with, like, giving people that information, but also like trying to make sure that it's done in an authentic way, because people want that authenticity, they come for the authenticity, but how do you create that and like, you know, when he's X number of albums and X number of songs in like, how much more is there really to say and unpack and like give people access to? So you know, again, I think this reoccurring theme of like, Who is he as an artist? And like, what is it what does it mean to like, have a persona and like, who are we getting to know and like, what, what is able to be kind of given out to people in some ways?
Phil 4:42
Yeah. And it's something I think I had asked this during our conversation with heat maps. It's like, I find a music specifically interesting in this regard, because and a lot for I think for a lot of musicians, you're kind of creating music that is of course authentic and true to you and your own experience, but You're, you're condensing it down into like this very, very specific moment or idea, which oftentimes leads to a lot of interpretation from others about like, not only you, but what the song could mean. And yeah, I think that cautious does a good job of kind of walking through like how do you navigate the world, being authentic telling stories that are based around your own experiences. While so many people and in his case millions of people are going to have their own ideas and assumptions about him and his music and what it's about and everything like that was something that that was really eye opening to hear especially that like he essentially was like, I don't think I've changed a lot, you know,
Ben 5:47
rare right?
Phil 5:49
So I appreciated that a lot. But yeah, I think that this is a really interesting conversation. One that I was really excited for, and I hope that you all enjoy it. So how about we just roll that clip?
Joshua car pay more more widely known as cautious clay is a producer, multi instrumentalist and singer songwriter from Cleveland, Ohio, Ohio, and currently based in Brooklyn, New York. His music mixes hip hop and r&b and blends organic and electronic instruments to create a unique sound. He's collaborated with musicians such as Taylor Swift, John Mayer, Billy Eilish, Saba, and many more, and has released three EPS blood type, resonance and table of context. Most recently, he released his debut album, deadpan love. Thanks for joining us, Joshua.
Cautious Clay 6:55
Thanks for having me.
Phil 6:57
Congrats on releasing deadpan love, it seems like it's been a kind of a long time coming and that you've been building toward it for a while. I'm wondering how it feels to kind of finally have this album out in the world.
Cautious Clay 7:12
It feels good. Yeah. I mean, I, I feel like it's also kind of like, it's only been out for like, almost two month and a half now. But it also feels like oh my gosh, like, it's been out for this long. And then like, what's next, but like, I have a lot. So it's just like, it's funny, because like, I don't, I really spend a lot of time on it. And I feel very proud of it. But I'm also kind of like, okay, cool. Like, I'm also ready to tour it, too. So like, but my tour is until March. So it's, it's kind of funny, but yeah, I'm excited. I'm very like, I feel like it's gonna be really fun. Because I think like the even the shows that we've played, thus far, like we've only played a few, but the reactions have been really good on on a lot of like, music from the album. And
Phil 8:05
no, no, that's, I mean, I feel we've been interviewing a lot of musicians who have released albums, amidst like, the pandemic, whether it be like at the start, or you know, now that we're kind of a year, a year and, and kind of hearing the various kinds of feelings that that go with that. And I think everybody seems to be resonating with the fact like, Damn, I'm just ready to get out there and like, play the songs. Yeah. And it seems like you're just playing at Lollapalooza. Right? Yeah,
Cautious Clay 8:34
I was actually just played a show. There are two shows there. We did a smaller one. And then we did like a bigger one was like a late night show. So. Yeah. And that felt good. felt amazing. Yeah, I we rehearsed for probably close to 70 hours, the week before. So at that point, it was just kind of like, click, yeah, it just felt easy, you know, because, like, the band was really tight. And like, everyone had to learn their parts. And I felt very comfortable because I'm not like, I feel like I'm a good performer when it's like, I prepare but I'm not like a naturally good, like bantering kind of artist. So yeah, it was cool, because I felt very much like free and open to to perform, you know, in the way that I felt. Comfortable.
Ben 9:26
Yeah. Was this an album that you were kind of like working on throughout the pandemic? Or is this something that was like pretty, pretty ready to go kind of before things started shutting down?
Cautious Clay 9:37
Well, it was ready to go ish. Like, there was a few songs. Like there was there's a lot of songs I had, but then ended up changing a lot. So yeah, like, I feel like I could always have an album, you know, like, I have enough music for that. But it's like, it's more like, oh, how do I want this to feel like what do I want? This to express your How do I want this to be expressed? And I think that's a huge part of that process for me. Like, I think most artists, it's like, the I don't know, I just personally have a ton of music all the time, but it's just like a matter of like packaging it together to make it feel like you know, like it's something that you care about and that you like, really want to have like a full kind of like statement with it. So, yeah, I guess the short answer is yes, I did have enough. But no, it wasn't like, in the right form. At the time.
Ben 10:41
It sounds like you're saying like, maybe finding ways to make sure that an album was like thematically, like they're, like, resonant and that like the songs work well together. I'm wondering if like, as you were making decisions about what was going on this album, you know, did that shift over the course of, you know, the, the pandemic where you're like, you know, what, actually, the song feels like, it's wrong here. Maybe there's something else that I can put in?
Cautious Clay 11:04
Yeah, definitely. That definitely happened a few times. Yeah, there was another song I made with Saba that I thought it was gonna be on the album. And I ended up, like, replacing it with Strangelove. So it's definitely part of that process. And it's, it's kind of like, yeah, sometimes I just forget how much music I have. Like, it's a process. You know, I'm just like, oh, yeah, that song I made like a year and a half ago. So it's really just a matter of Yeah, how it all fits together and the sound and in its presentation.
Phil 11:45
Yeah, I'm curious. Like, what? I think both Ben and I have our own ideas of maybe what the album is about. And we could we could get in get into that in a bit. But I'm just curious, maybe what were you thinking about in relation to kind of making this record and maybe, you know, curating what, you know, the catalog that the album ended up comprising? Like, what were you thinking in terms of making deadpan love maybe in relation to your previous projects?
Cautious Clay 12:13
Yeah, to be honest, like I had wanted deadpan love to encapsulate all of the past work that I have put out, or like, the past music that I put out, in a way where I could say, hey, like, this was an era, this was a thing for me that I did, as cautious clay and like, Yeah, this is like something I can be like, Okay, I did that. And, and I felt like blood type was like, was my first entrance into singing, and writing, because it was still at that point was still super new for me. And, and so by the time I, you know, released, deadpan love, it felt like, Okay, this, this style of writing this way of writing, and these, like these themes, feel like they can be all encompassed into this album that I love. mostly dealing with identity relationships. I feel like also just like, what it feels like to be who I am, as like a person of color, but then also like, slightly talking about, like, the over capitalization of everything, you know, things exchanged love songs, exchange, love and songs, like crowned, which was off of a smaller EP that I released in the past. And so there's like, different elements of that kind of all spurs throughout my music. And I think I think that's going to sort of be consistent in some ways throughout my music, but I think the way in which I want to present it, I think is is maybe gonna change in some ways. You know,
Phil 14:05
ya know, I really resonate with that, I think, you know, I had heard of her view back and blood type era and because, you know, a friend of mine has a que I'm like a big Frank Ocean fan, and they're like, Hey, this is kind of like Frank Ocean or whatever it was that they sent it, they sent on my way, and I ended up falling in love with that EP, and I think something I'm noticing a lot on deadpan love that I resonate a lot with. I think especially being a black man in America is kind of these themes around kind of presenting oneself with a tough exterior, or like kind of, maybe not being emotionally, externally emotionally. Outward about how I'm feeling at least I'm having this kind of interior life that's very rich and and complicates how I how I navigate the world and yeah, I'm wondering, Am I kind of on the right, on the right base with that it kind of feels like that there's a lot of that happening.
Cautious Clay 15:08
Definitely. Yeah, I think that that's certainly the theme of depth and love in a lot of ways is is like having this sort of, like, cynical kind of like witty perspective around what I, what I, how I present myself in some ways, but then having a sort of compassionate and empathetic kind of open, internal way of expressing myself and so, I Yeah, it's like, yeah, like you're saying, like, I'm using that as a way to, to present my feelings and, and sort of perspective on the world.
Ben 15:50
Yeah, I, you know, one of the themes, I think, going on this idea of like, vulnerability is, you know, that felt like it kept popping up to me was this idea of like, feeling stuck and trapped in your own head. I think boxset bones kind of gets at that I really love that line, I'll burn a bridge just to prove that I'm lost. And I'm wondering if you can talk about this through line of maybe struggling to communicate and express. And maybe there's a follow up question there about like, is music for you in some ways, a way to find a way to say the things that may be in like, the day to day life, it's, it can sometimes be hard or complicated, or you do feel like you get trapped in your head. And it's difficult or impossible sometimes to just like, say that stuff straight up.
Cautious Clay 16:35
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a great example. And that song in general, I think, very much was just try was trying to encapsulate, like, in a raw way, like the feeling of being a person in the world in just kind of like, okay, this, this feels good, this feels bad. This is, you know, weird. And then this is like, makes me angry. So, I've like, the lyrics of that song aren't very complicated, but it's like very much on purpose. It's just this like, it's almost like this, this meditation on what, what I'm feeling and when that because like, box of bones is really like, it's like a metaphor for like, what it what it feels like to be a human, like a box of bones. Like, we're all just boxes of bones, you know, so that that was really my, my take on that song. And I think, yeah, things are always so complicated that but at the same time, I think in our heads, things are just kind of like, okay, this is what I feel. And it's not complicated. It's just what I feel. But we make it complicated because we're very different types of communicators and no one is a mind reader. So I think that's really what what was at the point of that song? Song
Phil 18:34
Well, yeah, kind of felt like I'm thinking about, like, how you arranged the tracklisting that it speaks to that feeling of like, the first half homeless, and my, in my mind almost feels like these moments of the speaker, or are you trying to kind of be present or in the moment trying to have like, these reactions to what's happening and in, in your day to day life, whether that's love or something else, and then the second half kind of almost being burdened or submerging into that and that interior and kind of working through like, all these thoughts that are in your head, and how do you kind of still deal with like, real life while you're kind of thinking about all this shit, you know?
Cautious Clay 19:19
Yeah, it's definitely kind of broken up in this sort of hot and cold fashion like, lyrically. But then also sonically, I kind of made that decision where it's sort of like this bravado and like songs exchanged love but then like this, like more introspection, like moody type thing with like, roots or, you know. Yeah, like, whoa, or one of like, yeah, I feel like that was definitely I tried to do that on purpose. So like, yeah, like kind of having different emotional states with like, who I am or where I'm at?
Phil 19:56
Is it for the songs normally for you? Is it Are they kind of like a long, just gestation period? Is it something like for instance, like a song like, like, whoa, or one that I really loved was bumped bump stock? Are those songs that kind of just, like, come out pretty quickly? Or do they kind of take months of you kind of figuring out? What exactly you're getting at maybe lyrically.
Cautious Clay 20:23
Lyrically, they often happen fairly quickly, like, and then, you know, within a month at tops sometimes a day. Yeah, sometimes it's Yeah, week or day. And then sometimes that it's like, there's certain lyrics that I'll change very last minute, that I'm like, Oh, wait, let me think more about that. But it's a process because a lot of times, like I'm also producing it, and trying to finish out sounds as well. So yeah, it's it's like kind of an a total process, like a total package and how it all comes together. But yeah, as I've created more and more music, that's certainly gotten easier to sort of distill what I'm trying to say, fairly quickly. Or, like, at least kind of, like, in this way of.
Yeah, like, I can try to just I can, I can try to get down to like, the, the expression, like how I want to express something
kind of like, lyrically, and try to try to make it sort of interesting and visual, and how I do that.
Ben 21:34
Yeah. You know, I'm wondering if you can talk about I felt like one of the other three lines that jumps out of this album for me was this idea of like, maybe you kind of reckoning with or thinking about, like, what is music? And what is creation to you? And like, what does it mean to put stuff out there? What does it mean to say stuff? And I'm wondering if you can talk about like, Yeah, where's your thinking at and what is, you know, producing music or putting the songs out there? What does it mean to you? And what is the value of it to you right now?
Cautious Clay 22:06
Yeah, I mean, that. I feel like that's certainly somewhat of a theme. Maybe not just even just music, maybe just creativity in general and being an artist because the skate in the middle of the song wiser place of cautious. Also a song like spinner is very much sort of about, like, that form of expression. Like, like, yeah, living through dreams is never quite exactly what it seems, you know, it's the, the crux of that song and just sort of like, having these feelings and then trying to put them out there, but like, feeling like an imposter feeling like, Oh, am I being genuine? And then but it's also very therapeutic, you know, to do this, because it's like a part of my expression.
Phil 22:51
And it's not a quad Exactly. On screen.
Cautious Clay 23:22
Went So, yes, to students, that first part, definitely a part of it. But I think like the skit which was very kind of silly and fun, and like I wanted it to sort of not be serious. Also, I feel like has a little bit of a deeper meaning. Because I like that I was in an Uber. And there's this couple asking the Uber driver about Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali. And like, they were talking about how he changed his name, and that they wanted it to be changed. And it also sounds like you're saying cautious clay, because it's kind of like fuzzy, but yeah, that was that was like just like a fun thing that I recorded and chopped up and
Unknown Speaker 24:05
if he doesn't want the vein, and it wouldn't let him change his name, every time he had a fight that would
Cautious Clay 24:12
I was really trying to get at the idea of like, how, a lot of times people will like want, like, like you have like you have a name that that you have. And then there's also a name that maybe you people know you by. And so like how people perceive you, as like an artist versus how you are perceived in your everyday life are oftentimes very different. And maybe sometimes they're not, but I guess it's sort of for me something that I think about a lot because like I think for Joshua carpet like yeah, myself, I love to make music and and make all types of music. But would I Yeah, I mean, I guess I could just put out a jazz album, and they'd be great. But, and I might, I might do that, but I think, like, part of me is also like, that would be so confusing, or maybe like, I could do, you know, like, it's like I could, I could really just do anything. But then it's like, if you're thinking about the world that we live in, and just like, what what type of like, activities are like rewarded or what type of things like actually make sense for you know, having sort of a career that that feels like, there's like some sort of like through line, it's like, you kind of have to have a plan, you have to have like, an ability to like, market yourself in some type of way. It doesn't have to always be like, a super pop sensibility thing. But it can't be random, it has to sort of have some sort of thematic element to it. So I guess, I guess that's what separates cautious clay from Dr. Charcot pay, because I would do whatever I wanted. And I do do whatever I want. But it's like, you have to like, think about what you're doing. It's never like a I don't know, like, for me, I'm not saying that's for everyone. But I think like for me as an artist. It's, it's sort of like, yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm, like, I'm to people, but um, because most of the people who love my music, have no idea who I am. So that's, that's like, really what the the crux of that idea is for me, and like, I guess art or making music is, is therapeutic and, and is important for my expression. But it's also important to a lot of the people who, who listen to me and enjoy, like, what I what I do. So it's I'm very, I'm very much on purpose, making music that I know, is sort of listened to will to a certain extent. You know, but I could also not, so it's like, it's really just, it's that conscious decision.
Phil 27:08
No, that's, I love that answer. It's funny, I feel like you kind of intuited what a big question I was, I was wondering myself is, you know, Ben and I are both writers, I mainly write creative nonfiction and personal essays and, and things like that. And something I'm always thinking to myself about is kind of the personas that we take on and our artistic, and our artistic lives. And, you know, when I write an essay, it's like, it might be about me, but it's kind of like this, this heightened version of myself, or like, it's kind of like me, looking at myself and outside of out of body, and it kind of gives me a different kind of clarity maybe on on my own life. I'm curious what you're already getting at it of like, what's the difference between cautious clay and Joshua car pay? I'm curious, like, you know, obviously, you have kind of blown up a lot like you have you have a lot of listeners you have, you're kind of on the world stage in some ways. And I'm curious how maybe your relationship to your persona as as cautious clay has, has changed over time from, you know, blood type, when you kind of, you know, burst on the scene and a major way to now? Or if it has at all,
Cautious Clay 28:26
I don't know, like, I think it's my, what your question was, like, what, what is, how do I, how has my outlook changed?
Phil 28:35
Yeah, like, I'm curious, you know, do you do you find that you are your relationship to kind of your stage persona, or, you know, whatever we want to call that side of you, is changing at all, now that you're kind of reaching these new echelons of like, public awareness, or like, you know, fan base.
Cautious Clay 28:57
I mean, I'm only to the extent of me performing on stage. I think, like, I've become a lot more comfortable with that. And that energy, I think, I think, like I could, I could certainly access it when I first started, but I think it was still very new. And now that I've done it so much, like, especially when it's a crowd of people that are there to see me it's like very much like, okay, yeah, I know what to do here. And but I think I think like my Outlook hasn't really changed a whole lot. Like I feel fulfilled very much like in a similar way about how I express myself, I think. Yeah, I think now that I've been an artist for some time, I think now I'm just kind of like, yeah, I definitely want to continue to experiment with
with what I do, but Um, I guess no, I don't I I think I've just become more comfortable in my, in my,
my world of music, you know. And like, I guess my capabilities,
Ben 30:17
thinking back to like this idea of vulnerability and wondering if like the persona or like having a separate person that you can be again, I don't really know what the boundary line is between them, but like, does that allow in some ways do you think to be more vulnerable? Because it's like, it's not you. It's not like view being you. In some ways. It's like, does that gap help? Yeah, I guess?
Cautious Clay 30:43
Um, maybe? Maybe a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it still feels like me, because I'm like, oh, everyone can see me here. But I try to tell myself like, you know, fuck it. Like, I don't, I think I know where my comfort. Comfort line is. I just it's just like, every, like being an artist, you're just paid to be vulnerable. So you know, that's just like, my line of work. So I don't know. I feel like, I certainly could be more vulnerable. But I don't know. It was no. Yeah. I don't always know. Like, I think I think I think it just depends on, like, I like how I express it. Like, sometimes sometimes it's very vulnerable. Sometimes it's like, more, more of like a flex. You know, it just depends. Yeah, it depends on what my mood is. But I try to try to navigate both worlds because I don't, I don't always feel like being vulnerable, to a certain extent. Or like, maybe I can feel, maybe it can feel vulnerable. But it's like, I mean, maybe I guess maybe it is vulnerable. Because, like, people's experiences. When they're, when they're direct, I think that that kind of makes it vulnerable. Because it's, it's a reality that that someone has and so like, if you're going to talk about our subject that's like, oh, like, I think I'm, I think I'm hot or Oh, I think, yeah, I feel like, I feel like a loser. I don't know, just like anything. And you say it in a way that's interesting. That's, that's gonna be that's gonna be vulnerable. Like, that's going to be. I think, I think it's just a matter of how you say it, I guess, is all I'm trying to say. Which, which is not complicated. Yeah.
Ben 33:00
I almost wonder, I really love what you said about like, artists are kind of paid to be vulnerable in a way and I'm wondering if like, you've ever felt pressured to, like, expose more of yourself? Because like, oh, that's what people are looking for, like, oh, people want to know, you know, that kind of vulnerability is like, can be a thing that draws people in. But also, like, you are negotiating like, well, what am I comfortable putting out there? And like, what do I feel okay, about, like, being out in the world? Do you ever, you know, I guess, come up against that line?
Cautious Clay 33:28
Yeah, no, I definitely. All the time. And I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. Because Because it's like, I am not. Yeah, I just have never been a person who likes to just, like, put myself out there in a very big way. Like, that's just not, it's taking me a lot to get to this point. From a comfort perspective, like I didn't, I was never, like, a socially like social online kind of persona person. Like, I just didn't have that, like, energy in me. I mean, I can do it, but it's just like, it's like a it's a chore. So it's, yeah, and even like in school, like I love to, like, have fun and like, be just be weird and silly, but I think like for me, it's never been something that yeah, it's sort of it's like I just probably think about it too much or it's just like a lot of it's a lot of work for me to like to really to do that. But I'm not sure if that was the answer, but it's just like I'm not it's just not my
Phil 34:45
I think we vibe with that a lot it you know, just that kind of the social media machine of having to kind of continually put yourself out there and be like, Hey, look at this thing, or, Hey, here's this new milestone it can feel oftentimes like a boast and I think that's something that Ben and I are like having to navigate a lot to just like doing the podcast of like, we want people to listen. But it's also like tiring to constantly tell people like, listen to this thing or look at this thing we've done. And I think something that I've been, you know, ruminating on a lot is maybe changing my perspective on what that like marketing our, you know, social shit is, and that's like, kind of forming connections with people trying to find a way to like, connect with the people who like the stuff that you make. And that's made it at least a little bit easier for me, I think
Cautious Clay 35:36
nice. Yeah. No, that's definitely a big part of it, too, is just connecting with other people around what you're doing. So yeah, I mean, I totally get that.
Phil 35:50
And I think I also I was listening to an interview with Tyler the Creator, couple days ago. And just to get to your back to your point of like, oh, you know, if I make a song where I'm saying, like, I'm hot, or like, like, I'm the shit or whatever. I think that there is like, a lot of value in that, that I'm finding lately of just like being able to express that self love or like that self appreciation that I think oftentimes we're kind of told, especially I think black people are told to like, you know, not say those things. Yeah. So I think that I just really fuck with that.
Cautious Clay 36:26
Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like that. I mean, that whole thing is a part of like, hip hop culture, though, to be honest. Like, is that sort of like, yeah, that boastful, like that bravado type of thing. And like, I think sometimes it gets played, because it's like, done in a way that's like, conventional. And so that's like, anything, you know, you just want to, you just want to do things in a creative way. It's just like, comedians, who, who steal, to steal, tell, like a joke. That's like, it's just like, low hanging fruit. It's like, Oh, my God, like, I heard that joke in like, 1998. Like, you know, this point, like, yeah, you can make fun of certain things, but it's like, certain things are just like, okay, like, catch up. So, it's really just a matter of like, understanding where people are, like, where this where culture is where society is. And then, and then writing in that fashion, you know, I mean, there's a lot there is, there is things that there are, there are songs and lyrics and ideas that are timeless. And that's like, that's definitely where I'm trying to be in this way of, like, when I write, I want to write things that that don't feel like, they still feel fresh, you know, in years to come. And so I choose to write that way, you know, without like, I use, I try to use minimal. Like, I don't know, like I use, I try to use words that people know, but like, I also want to, like, be creative with how I use words that like everyone knows. And so it's like, oh, wow, well, maybe not everyone, but it's like, okay, like, yeah, it's like, I can see your breath in the window written? I'm sorry, you're fogging up friendship. Like, I don't know. It's just like fun, lyrical, like a little bit. rappy. But not like, but it's like, also, I'm singing. So just, I don't know.
Phil 38:20
Yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot of your songs tend to have that kind of, there's like a duality or double meaning happening within them that playfulness. But then also there may be is like, a, something underneath the surface, like, we were reading your AMA on Reddit. And again, like bumpstop like, I could listen to that song, like, all all day, and they care in your answer about about it kind of being about gun violence, but then kind of you broaden the scope a bit. I'm wondering if maybe we could just talk about that song for a minute and what you were thinking about in relation to all those things?
Cautious Clay 38:54
Totally. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like I, I wrote that song, maybe like a year and a half ago. I think there had just been like a crazy shooting somewhere. And I was just like, really frustrated by it. And like, I was just like, This is absurd. And I just wanted to write a song that I felt like could speak to that emotion of feeling so upset, but then not but also feeling powerless at the same time. And and yeah, just really like, how absurd it is that yeah, people can just buy guns so easily and just, you know, have freewill about it. So yeah, that was really at the crux of the song. I also didn't want it to feel like like, like, like a guns are bad like, song like, I just want I wanted it to feel like wow, like, isn't this fucking crazy? This is terrible, but you know and I want to be able to do something about it but like it's like I don't even feel like I don't feel anything anymore like I feel so lost you know with with with how to approach this man in the crazies novels restoration formula was never changed me no way to repent in his skin off my back someone else's
Ben 41:11
and I think like Phil's touching on like this idea too that like you do broaden the scope that it's like it's more than guns are bad because the the double meaning there of like it also bumping the stock, right like and speaking to the idea of like, capital, right that like it also is like making it more, you know, conducive to sell guns too. And so like that's another aspect of it that that is more than just like, well, the guns are bad. Exactly. Maybe exactly like that.
Cautious Clay 41:38
Well, yeah, that was that was one lyric in the song How's it go? Well, bumpstop raised the stock up new man in the making, but I'm trying to think what I said right before it. Feel anymore? Oh, yeah. I felt like living you felt like taking bump stock raise the stock up new man in the making. So like, it's basically like, you could look at it from like, like, yeah, I felt like living you felt like taking so it's like, the billionaires, the capitalists, all these people, obviously taking away from people, like no one makes a billion dollars and off of just like raw sales. Like that's, that's that's not how economics works. You have to be doing some crazy shit to be doing that. So they're taking things from people to get that money. But then also, like, if you're taking someone's life by shooting them. That's like that. That's that parallel? And then and then. Yeah, like, so like, in parallel with that, like bump stocks, like are like the backs of guns. And so, like, sales will go up on that one, you know, people. Yeah, people are afraid to like they buy guns or like, Obama's elected so they buy guns or I don't know, it's just like, it's all just like, related in some weird way. It's like, the economics is so emotional. So I just was making a slight parallel to, to Yeah, to like, how, yeah, the stock market, but then also gun violence or just sort of like these, these these games, like their games to people. You know, it's not like a real it doesn't have a real place. It shouldn't have a real place and in our society.
Phil 43:47
Yeah. And I think like the chorus to just it was a nuanced way of kind of getting what I think a lot of people are feeling, especially over the last year or two, just like, you know, you're feeling all these things, but it's kind of like, at the same time, like, I'm just am I'm indifferent. Like I don't even like it happens so often. It's like, I know, I should be feeling like, active and like wanting to change and then at the same time, I'm like, man, like, fuck this shit. Like, I don't want to do anything.
Cautious Clay 44:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean, it's, it's tough because it's like, yeah. I do believe like, I try my best to, like, help people around me that I know and like, try to, like, be involved in, in different projects, especially with my roommates. Like, I live with 11 other people. So like, you know, I would say like, I'm kind of in a in a different scenario than a lot of my roommates because I'm traveling, doing different things. And everyone has jobs and is doing fine, but I feel like I feel like so much of how we decide to decide to approach like Helping each other even like the whole, like, narrative around? When is it voting with your dollar vote voting with your like that whole? Like, it's just so people have it's so as backwards, you know, like it shouldn't we shouldn't be bringing capitalism into like, equitable living and like equality. Like that's not like why is Facebook telling me to like? Why are they telling me to like be like, Oh, Black Lives Matter trans lives matter, y'all are destabilizing entire country, it's like, who cares? Like, who cares, dude? Like, that's not that's not what I care like I don't like I'm not gonna like feel better because you just said that, like you also like, you all should be doing other things, not like trying to bandwagon on these cultural movements because it's, yeah, it's got the cultural thing or never. So I just I don't know, like I just sometimes wish, like, it shouldn't be up to people to or companies to like corporations to like, say these things. It should just be like, this should be handled differently. And I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I just sometimes I get like, it's kind of frustrating. So
Phil 46:17
well maybe do to switch gears a bit, I'd love to do you know, maybe something a little bit later? I'd love to just hear a bit about your, like, growing up like with in relation to music was that? Are you from like a bigger family? Do you have siblings? Were you all playing music? Or, you know, how did you kind of get into into music?
Cautious Clay 46:41
So I got into music through Yeah, I have I have like, both of my parents are really, really into they're both really into music. They both have huge record collections. And they were they were separate by the time that I started growing up, but like, I would visit my dad or, you know, my mom would play something. And I don't know, like, I was always around the house. So I
by the time I was seven, I kind of just was like also kind of making.
Like, I found stuff that I liked, too. So like I was listening to a lot of random stuff. And I was really into Aladdin as well. Like the like, I love cartoons. And so like Aladdin was just one cartoon. And they had this flute, or what I thought was a flute in the in the movie. And I was like, Mom, like, I want to play that instrument. And then she was like, oh, cool, like. Sure. And then, and then basically, I started taking flute lessons like private lessons when I was seven, and I stuck with it till the debt is day, so 21 years later, I'm still playing the flute, but yeah, that wasn't like the most eloquent story but like, that's basically how I got started. And it kind of evolved into other things. As well, you know, with like, like I yeah, I just had I had a pretty broad musical tastes when I when I was a kid like, I give up my first CDs I had like, yeah, I loved creed. I loved Green Day, I loved bows into the Isley Brothers. I don't know I just I liked the Isley Brothers because they had like the puffy jackets on the front of the vinyls, or the vinyls, a CD. They had the CDs at the time. But, yeah, so it was it was all over the place. Then, yeah, my mom would play tons of like, you know, Laura Niro and Marvin Gaye and Nick Drake and Barry White. And my dad would play a bunch of like Ornette Coleman, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis kind of blue. I don't know, I just I just was exposed to a lot as a kid. And then like, I went through a lot of different phases. And in my teenage years, I was joined the jazz band and got into that whole process. And that's when I learned saxophone. It's actually was actually easier than the flute. So learn that. And yeah, I don't know. And then I went through an EDM phase. I made a bunch of like, DJ music I was producing in college and tech house and stuff like that. So I just I just kind of ran the gamut of music before any of this cautious claims. The cat came out so it kind of like, got all of my got all of my years of just like oh, what do I want to do? So?
Phil 50:08
Did you just go back back then like in college and stuff like that? Did you just go by your name when you when you were playing or did you know it was cautious clay existing even back then it was
Cautious Clay 50:17
Clay was around back then. Yeah. Real ones. No one's known me like that. So if you ever could certainly find some, some remixes somewhere out there on the internet. I did a Zach Apple remix. I did this girl Chiara hunter who was like this random girl signed to Atlantic who like, I don't even know what the hell she's doing now. But yeah, I like did all these official remixes and stuff. And that was like, some of my first times ever, like dealing with like, a&r 's and stuff. A lot of them didn't pay me. So classic. But
Ben 50:55
I was reading an interview with that you did with euphoria, where you talked about being a real estate agent before this. And I'm wondering what that was like? And like, yeah, I don't know. Is there anything that that carried over? Between those two things? From real estate agent to musician?
Cautious Clay 51:12
Oh, yeah. I mean, my ability to talk to people, I guess, improved quite a bit because I had to walk around and, and be like, you know, like, I think that's why these interviews are just like, even talking in general just sort of became Sorry, one second. It became easier for me because I had to be in these uncomfortable situations, like bag of cookies, trying to bags of cookies, trying to like convince people to buy these ads, you know, in New York, so. Yeah, I guess it improved my social skills in some way. Or at least I don't know, I could never feel that embarrassed. So. Yeah, I didn't love it. But it worked out for me, I guess. But it was it was definitely socially the like, oh, like, yeah, I walked a lot to I had to walk around the city a lot to get to appointments. And so
Phil 52:15
I don't know. And that was in New York.
Cautious Clay 52:18
Yeah, that was that was in New York for one year. And then the year before that, I worked as a leasing agent in DC. But then I got fired from that job, luckily, and I moved up to New York, due to do something similar, but on the other end of the spectrum, when it comes to Okay. So like, I was working as a leasing agent the first time. And then the second time, I was working as an advertising rep for a real estate company. So, yeah, I was basically selling ad packages to management companies. At that point. It was just all sales all sales.
Phil 53:03
When When did you kind of feel confident to just like, leave all that behind and be like, Okay, I'm like, put my feet down. I'm just going to be doing doing music. When When did that happen?
Cautious Clay 53:17
Well, I was making pretty decent money actually, at that job, even though it was like a complete sham. And that allowed me to just kind of be like, Okay, well, that was crazy. Like, I can't believe I made that money doing that. And so I can't, I could never see myself like making a career out of this. Like, that's ridiculous like that. What a what a soul is way to live personally. Like, I don't begrudge anyone doing that. But so I saved up money. And I was like, well, music is something I'm very good at. So I'll just go for it. And had been, I had been shedding producing for years. At that point, I just started to sing in record myself. And so it just felt like the most opportune time to just like, you know, I had, I had enough money to like, save me into like, a year and a half. So I was like, okay, you know what, like, I'm not spending tons of money. I'm just gonna do this and see how it works. And it worked almost immediately. So
Phil 54:24
yeah. Is that when a blood type came out? Or were you still
Cautious Clay 54:28
Yeah, so Cold War came out? Like a month or two after I quit my job. Oh, wow. And then yeah, it was just like, Oh, sick. Let's go.
Phil 54:39
Yeah, that's crazy. That song because I mean, I don't know if it was immediate, but it seemed like that song blew up, like pretty immediate.
Cautious Clay 54:44
I mean, it was like the first month they had a million plays. And for me, that was like, what the like we just spoke Oh. And that's still like, I mean, it's not that much anymore. But it is still a lot for a lot of artists, you know what I mean? So like, I was like, what? Like, how did that, and then it just kind of just kept going. And then I got to sync with this, you know, with this large speaker company called JBL. And on a song called Joshua Tree. And yeah, that also happened, like maybe five months after I quit my job. And I was working, I was working part time as a waiter at this Caribbean restaurant, too at the time. So like, that was like, sort of supplementing things. But yeah, it all just kind of. Yeah, it all just, I mean, I guess I've been doing it now for for about four and a half years for almost five years, full time, so.
Phil 56:06
And it seemed like you're running a pretty tight ship for a long time in terms of like, not having that kind of managing everything yourself, or for a large portion of it. And now it seems like you're kind of starting to like realize, okay, I need to have like certain people on and build out this team. I'm wondering what it's like now that, you know, this new album is out and, you know, is getting, you know, people are listening, you're kind of thinking about next steps. What is this? Is this kind of an interesting moment for you right now, do you think in terms of your career, and that kind of transitioning into maybe something bigger in scope?
Cautious Clay 56:42
I don't know. I mean, I think I'm working on a second album, my sophomore album, but I'm also kind of like, yeah, probably going to put a little EP out or something like that. In between this and tour and I started a record label as well. Which, because, yeah, we started with my lawyer and a friend. And that's going well, you know, we were putting out we've put out a few different artists that are that are cool. And we're putting out I'm really like jazzed about this, but we're putting out this artist's name wet. I don't know if you know what. But yeah, she's putting out I think, her third album, or fourth album with us. And she's got some features from dev Hynes. And I think totally why I produced a track. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. I have my own publishing company. Like I'm obviously like a songwriter as well. So these are all things that I do. But I don't think yeah, I still think my focus is really on on cautious clay as a whole. And so I don't really see that changing a lot. Yeah. drew me, but I think I don't know.
Phil 58:12
Yeah, well, out of curiosity, what inspired you all to want to do the record label? That seems like really cool. And really, they got really fun?
Cautious Clay 58:20
Yeah, to be honest, it wasn't, it wasn't totally my idea. But I they asked me to be a partner. And I was like, hell yeah, let's go, whatever. And so I got involved and has sort of been in the process of helping out. Just like talking it really, the label was really born out of an idea of like, kind of like a, like, a jumping off point for artists in general who maybe are in a transitional period, as well. Or maybe they're just like, starting out. And just need, like, additional, like contacts or like perspective on things. So I really wanted to just like offer, and it's like, we just really wanted to offer a space for like, artists like to act as almost like a distribution. You know, I mean, it is a record label, but it's like, we're not like, I think in terms of like our deals, it's just like a very, like, fair and like kind of like non it doesn't we're not like holding on to your masters forever type of scenario. So it's like a very, like, it's just like, hey, you know, this is just sort of a thing where you can like, put out a single with us, and that's it, or you could put a whole album, it's really up to them. And so I was totally about that because I think even for my own career, like I've worked very well with a distributor, you know, putting out singles or putting out albums. And so, we wanted to model that for our own label. And just to sort of be, like, a new way for people to, to really put out music but in a way where it's like, there's, there's, there's actually people working to help push it, you know, in a way without it sort of just being like, okay, like, just gonna put this out on distro kid or, and that's fine too like, I think everyone should do that it's more of just like, we're just offering like, fair, I'm not even selling and I'm just like telling you what the whole point. So, you know, we're just trying, like, I think that that worked very well for me when I decided to switch over from distro kid to then we tried something with STEM, but that didn't work out very well and then yeah, and then I'm with the orchard now for distribution? And yeah, you know, it's it's a totally fair thing to do so I really like just really encourage that model for for myself and other artists who are kind of like, not signed to a label or are are kind of like not trying to give away a ton of their equity. I don't know. So,
Ben 1:01:18
you know, one of the questions that I had was like this persona of cautious and whether or not you see yourself as a cautious person, and whether that has maybe begun shifting, I was noticing on this album, there's a lot of there's a lot of lines around like recklessness and being reckless. And so I'm wondering, like, if there's a point where you start to shift beyond that, and if the persona shifts to right, if it's like, you know, a couple or a couple years out from a confident clay or a carefree clay album.
Cautious Clay 1:01:53
Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, that could be great. I don't know. I I feel like I, I have always Yeah, I mean, I think that's just like, I think there's always going to be a part of me that is a little bit like, cautious. You know, like, that's just sort of my personality. I'm not a very confrontational person. Unless, like, unless, like, I have a real huge problem with you. And then I get very confrontational, but like, I'm not like I just like I would like to avoid, you know, being an asshole or gaslighting or doing any of that stuff. Because it's just not it's not. I feel like that's just not who I am at my core. And so like, it's, it's it's not something I want to do, but I think at the same time, like I think that that is also very different than confidence. You know, having confidence isn't it's not a bad thing. So I think yeah, I am totally on board with that. That sentiment in some ways. Yeah, I don't know. I think I think maybe the name will stay the same but like maybe like the the title will be more evocative in some ways. Yeah, sure. For for for album, I'm constantly thinking about our own titles. So you know, it's good to good to be dead deadpan
Phil 1:03:22
lovers. It was a great one in terms of in terms of like, what the themes and everything they're about. Stupid question for me. Something that I'm always really fascinated about when I listened to like r&b and hip hop albums is like the skits and you kind of gave us the story about how why is your clay so cautious? Yeah, I'm curious. Like, obviously, it's gonna be different for everybody. But at least for you, like when you're thinking about those kinds of like adding those things into the album's I think what does it doesn't Strange Love start with
Cautious Clay 1:03:55
such this sort of talking? Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah.
Phil 1:03:58
What, uh, what's the process like that? Like, what are you all thinking when you're kind of adding that stuff in? Is it just kind of like you had with for instance, with the recorded Convo from the Uber? Was that just like a moment of like, you all of a sudden you thought of it and like, oh, shit, this will be perfect.
Cautious Clay 1:04:16
Yeah, I remembered the conversation. And I was like, Man, I really want to use this conversation at some point. And I felt like it worked really well. And then like, I basically just like took high risk travel and then like, pitch it up really high and like made it fast and put it in the background. It just felt like this kind of like goofy moment for the album. I don't know if that's really loved it Yeah, it just was like I felt like it added character. That's really all there wasn't like a master plan. Other than that, like Yeah, like the theme of of that discussion felt like very interesting to me. It felt like there was something to unpack and so I, the conversation was a lot longer and I just found that one section and also the Section feels like kind of interesting and even hearing their reactions like Oh, I see. Okay, so
Phil 1:05:09
now it's really I mean, like when I was listening to it the first the first couple of times, I'm like, damn, like Did Did they like script this out? It's like such a perfect yeah kind of thing to have in there. It's cool that and ironic that you just happened.
Cautious Clay 1:05:22
I was in Uber and I was like, This guy is so funny. Like the Uber driver just talked in this funny way. I was like, Dude, this is so crazy. I gotta record this because you just sound like, and then I mean, I pitched his voice. Like, I pitch everyone's voices. So it doesn't even like, I don't know if they'll ever find that out. They might not even
Ben 1:05:40
know if it's just enough. I don't I don't think they're gonna notice. But I would love that idea of him putting it on and be like, Oh, I think that might be
Cautious Clay 1:05:49
me. Yeah. That's me. The hell I'm calling the cops. Call my lawyer. I don't know. Yeah,
Phil 1:05:59
it's one thing I'm always interested in is like, I don't know if it's just because of like, the pandemic or if I've always just disciplined this way. But like, whenever we release something, like when we when we launched the podcast, like a month or a month or so ago, it's like you, you released this big project, and then it's this kind of like, okay, I'm gonna make dinner now. I was like, I'm curious. Like, what? What was it like for you to release this like to release this album? Or any of your projects? Do you have like a kind of celebratory ritual? They usually do? Or is it just kind of like, okay, well, kind of watch Netflix now?
Cautious Clay 1:06:33
Well, I mean, yeah, we had a little celebration actually for deadpan love, but yeah, it. Yeah, we were like, We did like a little celebration, like my girlfriend and like a bunch of people out the orchard and some friends. So it definitely will happen. But one second, sorry. Yeah, it definitely it definitely would happen. Which is kind of like, I'm not I'm not very good at like throwing my own parties or doing my own thing dealing with that with that. But yeah, I mean, we also announced a tour. I don't know, I guess I guess we did do an event for it. But it wasn't, it was even sort of like pulling teeth to even do that. Because I'm not, I'm not very like, like, I like people to have fun and like enjoy themselves. And I ended up really loving it. But I feel like doing that kind of thing is always something I struggle
Phil 1:07:33
with. And that was our conversation with cautious clay about his debut album deadpan love and everything else in relation to how he creates today. Again, it was really fun meeting him and talking to him about his music. It's, he's somebody I've been listening to for years. So I definitely didn't expect that we'd be able to, like talk to somebody like him. I think a lot of really interesting things to say. And I mean, like I said in the intro, I think the biggest one of the biggest takeaways is like he's kind of just like, pretty like this a normal dude, he's just gonna, like, I don't think I've changed that much, despite the fact that I like, I'm working with people who would like Taylor Swift and John Mayer, and all these people, you know,
Ben 1:08:35
totally, totally. I also I think the other thing maybe worth just like circling back to is like, I really like your question about kind of disarm bump stock. I think he gave a really interesting answer about that. And it's like, it's always good to kind of hear the way that people I think, are thinking through these other events out in the world, and kind of framing them and understanding them. And yeah, I think that that, that kind of question and answers specifically, I was like, okay, like, Let's go
Phil 1:09:08
for sure. Yeah, I think that and then it's like everything about you know, the album grappling with this idea of like, how do you respond to these external things that happened to you versus like, stopping yourself from receding into your interior life and not responding to the outside world? I think like all those things, at least for me, something I could really relate to. So in that way, it was kind of nice to see a mirror and a sense of like, oh, other people feel this way too.
Ben 1:09:40
Right. Other people are grappling with this and trying to understand like how to make sense of this. Yeah.
Phil 1:09:48
So yeah, if you want to check out a conscious plays music you can find him anywhere. Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube. You know, by his record, it's really good. And again, we have another user email.
Ben 1:10:07
You've got mail. Yeah, we
Phil 1:10:09
have another email coming in from a listener of the show, a friend of the show. Friend of the pod baby, our our boy Joe has sent us an email and he has answered the age old question, the one written into the stone tablet since this podcast started. What is your favorite and or best sandwich recommendation?
Ben 1:10:33
Yes. And you know what? Actually, you should, you should you should read it.
Phil 1:10:38
So here it goes. This is Joe's email, he doesn't start with a hello or anything, anything like that. It goes right to the Point class. So you're gonna want to get some good mortadella and some good capicola who have parentheses gabagool for the fans out there. Proceed with a hoagie roll. And if you're a Go make your own and add the following. One tablespoon olive oil, a dash of oregano, just a dash, two slices of provolone cheese, three slices of capicola three slices of mortadella one roma tomato sliced, and a handful of arugula. Optional 1/4 of a thinly sliced white onion. Spicy Calabrian peppers as desired. With love
Ben 1:11:36
Joe, he said that he said it he said it he said love. He said love. Big deal. Big deal, I will say. So I went and visited Joe recently. And he made this very sandwich. Delicious, transcendent I ascended to the astral plane. Beautiful sandwich. After finishing it did not poop for like two days.
Phil 1:12:06
And I will say I have seen pictures of the sandwich in the group chat. And it's pretty fucked up. I didn't get to try it.
Ben 1:12:15
Yeah, I bloated up. Like, like a shark coterie plate in the hot summer sun. You know I'm saying
Phil 1:12:23
that's a messed up image on Sorry, sorry, to our listeners for that one. But damn that, that. That sounds fucking good.
Ben 1:12:36
It's really good. In conclusion, it's very good sandwich.
Phil 1:12:39
Joe, thanks for the thanks for this sandwich recommendation. If you all have your own opinions, if you want to
Ben 1:12:47
good luck sleep in afterwards, though, probably won't sleep for a couple of nights. Just be up late. With that bad indigestion.
Phil 1:12:54
If you want to argue against this, I mean currently this is this, by default is the best thing of all time. reigning champ breeding. So if you want to throw somebody in the ring, now's your chance. If not, you know,
Ben 1:13:09
before I feel like we should say before trying to sandwich please, please reach out to your doctor and make sure that this is something that you can consume safe. Yeah,
Phil 1:13:19
we're gonna like probably insert something like, you know, in those like drug commercials, or there's like a zillion things like if this makes you should shoot yourself. You know, don't don't do it. But you know, try it at your own discretion is basically what we're saying. So thanks again, Joe, for sending that one in. And yeah, if you'd like to email us your own recommendations, or you know, some kind of question, you can email us at our email, which is the origin story pod@gmail.com. You can find us on Twitter at origin story underscore, you can find me at 3d Cisco and Ben, where can they find you?
Ben 1:14:04
They can find me at sad underscore radio underscore lad. You can also find us at origin story dot show. That's our website. Thanks as always to Ryan Hopper for providing music for the show and Melody Hirsch for the amazing cover art
Phil 1:14:21
and yeah, I guess this is time for us to say if you liked the show, feel free to leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It helps us get more eyes on it. And you know we'd love to hear your thoughts. So you can do that on your phone or on your desktop. If you are able to if not then this like tell your tell a friend tell your mom tell your tell your your dog I don't know.
Ben 1:14:45
Yeah, honestly, we should make like a mom or a grandparent like walkthrough for like how to leave a review. My mom's still can't figure it out
Phil 1:14:58
that's the reality.
Ben 1:15:00
I know parents in tech What do you got to do baby?
Phil 1:15:02
i My dad asked me every time a new episode comes out like how do you find these things? And I tell him and I never hear again. So
Ben 1:15:10
maybe maybe he's listening maybe he's developmentally we don't know.
Phil 1:15:14
You can. You can find us here every week, Thursday at 5am Pacific 8am. Eastern. And we will see y'all again here on the next episode.
