Greg Lobanov and Alexis Dean-Jones (Chicory) On The Anxieties Of Making Art and the Importance of Finishing Things

Episode Description

Greg Lobanov is a game designer from Philadelphia currently living in Canada. He is the director of Chicory: A Colorful Tale and has previously created Wandersong, and Coin Crypt, and a number of other projects.

Alexis Dean-Jones Storyboarder, illustrator, animator, and character designer originally from Brisbane, Australia, and currently based in Canada. She’s worked on projects for the Australia Post, as well as Slap Happy Cartoons where she worked on Tom & Jerry and the Hollow. Most recently she’s worked as the character animator and designer for Chicory: A Colorful Tale.

We talk to them about how Chicory helped them explore the anxieties and pressures around creating art and trying to build player creativity into a game.

Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp

Episode Notes

You can follow Greg here and Alexis here.

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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch

Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper

• Episode Transcript

  Phil 0:21
  What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm here with my co host, Ben Thorpe, and Ben. Today, we talked to Greg Lobanov. And Alexis de and Jones, who both worked on and created a new indie title called chicory, a colorful tale. Yeah, it's basically like a painting game, or you play as a dog wielding a magical paintbrush. And if you've played a game similar to like, Legend of Zelda, or something like that, you kind of are going around solving puzzles with your paintbrush, and coloring in a black and white world with all the colors that you deem appropriate. It's a really cute game, and super inventive. And it deals kind of with, you know,
  
  you know, impostor syndrome, mental health, and, you know, the, the creative process, it was a really interesting conversation.
  
  Ben 1:24
  Yeah, I mean, I think that summary is such a, that's a, it's such a hard game to summarize, in some ways, because it's a game that is like, on the one hand, it's a walkable kind of coloring book, you walk around with your character, and you can kind of color within some lines. But then, as I think you're talking about, it's also a game, it's kind of about imposter syndrome and mental health, I think it's really concerned with like, the burden of creation and like, what how that weighs on you feeling like you're kind of putting something out into the world. And then, you know, all the different characters in the game will sometimes tell you their perspective on this thing that you've created. And so it can be about, I think, the burden of creation, and wondering why you create and in the feeling that you're kind of alone, and that it's kind of isolating you. So it's a game that I think, you know, from its face from the surface, it's a coloring book, and it's kind of cute, but it also gets into some like pretty heavy themes, I think, pretty quickly.
  
  Phil 2:26
  Yeah, and to talk a bit more about the story in relation to that, it's kind of like that. So the title, chicory, that is kind of this magical character, who has this magical paintbrush who's tasked with, you know, coloring in the world to help the other residents in the world. And at the start of the game, chicory who is not your character is kind of like having this depressive moment, and they don't want to color anymore. And your character who is this dog, who you get to name whatever you'd like, finds the paintbrush and kind of gets thrust into this role of having to, you know, fulfill chicories duties as like this, this wielder and analog so well, I think with kind of a lot of what we've been talking about with creators of like, what do you do when you maybe create something or your or your, you experience a lot of response to your work, not expecting it? And kind of dealing with that idea of like, do I deserve this, this gift? Do I deserve this? notoriety or exposure? And like, how do I, you know, navigate in the world while my work is being, you know, consumed by others, I thought that that was a kind of really interesting way of not only using like the gameplay mechanics, which like Ben said, you know, you're like, coloring in the world, however you like, it's kind of freeform. But also using that to talk about, like these bigger ideas around being an artist.
  
  Ben 3:56
  Yeah, it's, it's always I think it's like the perfect interview for us. Because it's like, oh, we're having these conversations with creators about, like, why they create and what they create and what their relationship to that is, I think this is a game that is in a meta way, like very concerned with what it means to create and what a relationship, you know, to arts is from the kind of artists perspective. It was. It's a very, like, great, kind of interesting, compelling game. And yeah, it was a it was a really fun conversation,
  
  Phil 4:24
  for sure. And I think it's something that maybe you and I have definitely struggled with, as you know, we always want everything to be perfect. You want it to be the best thing possible. And what does that often lead to? It leads to a lot of unfinished things right?
  
  Ben 4:41
  You and I, we agonize over shit for just hours at a time. I think we're both the way where it's like, oh, we slotted out an afternoon like cool that sentence that we write in that afternoon. Gonna be pretty good.
  
  Phil 4:53
  Yeah, and I think it was really great having Greg and Alexis both there because they, you know, although they weren't in the same team, they obviously have different kind of creative ideas of like how you do things. And Greg makes a point to be like, I just like to finish it. Like, I'm not somebody who's going to be tied down by like trying to get everything perfect. And that's why I have other people like Alexis who are going to, like, come in and be like, Oh, maybe we should slow down. Maybe we should, you know, spend some more time. And I think, at least I'll just speak for myself. It was it was a good reminder to just be like, hey, sometimes you just need to finish the thing. And you can always, you know, spruce it up later.
  
  Ben 5:31
  Yeah, he had that line to think about efficiency. And I think after the fact both of us were like, huh, like, oh, that that kind of speaks to us deeply. like, damn, would be nice if we could finish the things we're working on writing.
  
  Phil 5:44
  Yeah, so that's something that I'm definitely taking, taking with me. But um, yeah, how about we allow Greg and Alexis to speak for themselves. I think this is a really fun conversation and we can't wait to let y'all hear it. Roll the clip. Greg Lobanov is a game designer from Philadelphia currently live in Canada. He is the director of chicory, a colorful tale and as previously created wander song and coin crypt, as well as worked on a number of other projects. And Alexis Steen Jones as a storyboard or illustrator, animator and character designer originally from Brisbane, Australia and currently based in Canada. She's worked on projects for the Australia Post as well as slap happy cartoons, where she worked on Tom and Jerry, and the hollow. Most recently she worked on chicory, a colorful tale as a character, animator, and designer. Thanks for joining us, y'all.
  
  Greg Lobanov 7:02
  Thanks for having us. Yep, that was really accurate biography right there.
  
  Phil 7:07
  Awesome. The research is paying off. Yeah, we wanted to bring you both on to talk about chicory, a colorful tail and just kind of everything else in really in relation to your work. And you know, just first off congrats on releasing the new game. It seems like the praise and reception has been kind of off the charts.
  
  Greg Lobanov 7:30
  Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 7:34
  Nice. Seen it. It out there.
  
  Greg Lobanov 7:38
  Yeah, I feel like it must be even crazier for Alexis, because this is her first game. Like for me, it's like, this is the biggest game we've ever released. But it's definitely like, there's it's a step from Wonder song. But for Alexis, I feel like it's a totally different world from what she was doing before. Right. Like first indie game and stuff.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 7:55
  Yeah, very different. Very, yeah. A lot more. A lot more personal than, than a lot of projects to date. A lot more a lot longer than all my other projects to date. Yeah, yeah. Just a lot more like, like, one on one involvement. Like, yeah, yeah, it was what before it was before when I was freelancing, it would be like, I would have a lot of a lot of creative control, usually, but, but the part is very, very short, like, like one week to two months kind of things. And then yeah, and then when I was working at an animation studio, like the very long project, but I was kind of just like one little, one little piece of the production pipeline. And so like, it was a lot more separated, like I would finish my work. And then like, like, six months to a year later, the thing would actually come out. That felt a lot more disconnected.
  
  Phil 8:45
  Out of curiosity, just since finding out that this is kind of your first games project, Alexis, and it's like, kind of that more personal connection to it. I'm curious what that experience has been like in terms of like, just seeing such a flood of like, reception for the game.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 9:05
  Definitely. Feels good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like definitely a little overwhelming at times. Yeah, yeah. Feels every every sort of little piece of feedback, whether it's whether it's like, like, yeah, how, like, negative or positive or, or somewhere in between. I feel like I take it very seriously. Which, which I which I know you shouldn't always do because like, like, like, you'd never get to make something that like everybody is going to connect with because everyone has a different experience of life and yeah, but it's it's been really really, really nice to see like how much people are like reading into all these little things that we put in there and like we didn't know if anyone would like would like pick up on all this that we're putting in because like yeah, like like some some some stuff. I feel like it's like pretty sort of on the surface of the game. And then like, yeah, a lot of the things feel more more hidden or more
  
  Greg Lobanov 10:05
  just kind of like really specific. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 10:09
  Or, like, sidelined?
  
  Ben 10:11
  And can you maybe just talk about like the the gap of really like the work that you're doing and the release being far enough apart? That it's like, what is your relationship to the game? And maybe how has it changed since that's happened? I know for Phil and I, we both like, or write essays and you send those out, even when a publication picks them up, it'll sometimes be like, months and months before they finally come out. And so it's like, by the time it gets published, you're like, do I even feel the same way that I felt about this before? Like, do I even believe the things that I wrote down in this essay? And so like, I don't know, like, what is your relationship like to this game? And did it shift kind of between the time of working on it and release?
  
  Greg Lobanov 10:51
  Yeah, I mean, I mean, that, that, that aspect of it, like when the most annoying parts of the whole process to me, like, especially with, like, this game, I think, had an especially long gap for me, like compared to other games have done before, because, like, this game was the first time where we did localization. And we also like we, the game launched on a new platform, the PlayStation five, which, like no game had done using our game engine before. So like, there were so many complications, like, there was a point where, like, most of my work had to be done. That wasn't like October of last year. That's when like, the story had to be wrapped. And like feature complete and everything.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 11:31
  That was like, particularly because we were doing translations, so we had to like,
  
  Greg Lobanov 11:34
  yeah, localization started that
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 11:36
  alright, anymore.
  
  Greg Lobanov 11:38
  And like the whole scripts, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, that's when I felt like done with the game emotionally. And everything since then was just like, like fixing console bugs, adding features for you know, controller stuff, or like, like UI stuff. And like fixing localization problems, adding new features to localizers to use fixing more bugs, and then even more bugs on top of those. And like, yeah, it didn't, it didn't feel like doing anything creative. So that by the time the game came out, I was I did feel like, pretty over it, so to speak, personally, but then when it came out, I like remembered how cool it was because like, yeah, everyone was playing it and talking about how dope it wasn't like, you know, getting excited about these things that for me, I just like forgotten even but there was any like spirit in it. You know, like, like you work on these animations are really cool story ideas. And then it's yours before anyone sees it. So they can the moment you're like, This is so cool. I can't just show somebody and then like a year passes or two years pass. And it's like, I don't remember the steps in the game anymore.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 12:38
  Yeah, well, you can you can think about is like that one thing that you'd like, didn't quite have time to do like, as good as you wanted to do a ah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 12:46
  yeah, cuz that's where your head's at. This last month is just like you're finding all the problems and focusing on trying to like, clean them out as best you can. So yeah, like, definitely some weird weirdness there. But then after the game came out, I like remembered like, oh, yeah, this game, though. People love it. And that's great. And it's a really, it's like a fun thing that people can enjoy. And not just like, a task list of bugs and problems that I have to like, get through.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 13:11
  Yeah, I was kind of working on the game, like, up until the last minute. Which was like, yeah, like, like, like, not, not like, not like the night before release. But like, like, a couple of weeks before. I was still putting animations into the game. Yeah, pretty close to the night before I release really close. Yeah, I'll close it, then you generally want to be putting stuff in?
  
  Greg Lobanov 13:34
  Yeah, we got complaints from reporting team.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 13:40
  Yeah, it was just it was just animation. So it wasn't like, it wasn't like, wasn't like new features or anything like that. But yeah, yeah. Everything has like a potential to, like, whenever you're writing new stuff into a game, it's got the potential to
  
  Greg Lobanov 13:54
  make problems make.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 13:58
  Yeah, I was working probably closer than I should have been to the day. But um, yeah, similar to what Greg saying, just like, you forget, you forget, like, like, 90 95% of the game and you just like, like, laser focused? And, yeah, yeah, it's nice to kind of open up your view again, and get to see people experience it as a as an entire thing.
  
  Phil 14:22
  Yeah, are you to like, I don't know if this is similar. If again, if I'm using like writing as a, an analog, you know, when I publish an essay or whatever, or listen, you know, when we publish an episode of the podcast, it's very rare that once it's out, I'll listen to it all again, or like read through the essay again, I'm curious like with something like games or your you know, having to like play test a lot of the experience and make sure that things are working correctly and everything. After the game has come out. Are y'all like, that's done? I'm out. Or do you actually go back and play it again?
  
  Greg Lobanov 14:57
  We didn't go back and play it again. But for a game Like, like, I don't know, like how like this game is, I think a bit special in that. It's a really about the players creativity. So like when we were working on it, like if anything, the frustration was that like, oh, this game is done, and nobody's playing it. Like, there's so many we worked so hard for years and all these tools and all these little hidden details things for people to find, and no one's finding them or playing them or using these tools or drawing anything. And like that's what's frustrating is like, I just want to see someone, like actually use the stuff we did, right. So like going in, like watching streamers play through the game. Like that was like, that was like the reason to be excited for when the game came out. For me anyway, and probably for Alexis, too. Like, we spent the first few days 24/7 Just we had livestreams up and we were just watching people play it like over and over like the same parts over and over again. It didn't matter because everyone's playthrough is different. People react to it differently.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 15:54
  Like look at the thing and be like okay, there's like there's like this many people and this this is this bit. Oh, this bits really good. We should like watch this. I haven't seen someone do this bit. Yeah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 16:01
  yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was,
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 16:05
  I had, I had like, it was really really cool watching people stream, but I had like, sort of weird mixed feelings about watching people stream sometimes because like, every now and then, like, especially when the game is getting to like the later stuff that I feel like a lot of people have, like, really personal reactions to I kind of felt weird. Watching someone stream that part once and feeling like Oh, I feel like you'd have a better experience of this if you weren't like, like having to interact with each other. Right? If you just like, just like, be in the moment. But but but like, but I guess they I guess last year was kind of do that all the time. And that's, that's that so hopefully they enjoy that. Hopefully they enjoy experiencing experiencing games that way. Yeah,
  
  Ben 16:47
  I hadn't even thought that that is yeah, of course. That's an option. Like being able to actually pull up streams of the game and be like, feels like it's equivalent to like when you recommend a movie to someone you're like sitting on the couch and like watching their every reaction. You're like, yeah, that part was good, right? Yeah, you're actually sitting through and able to kind of like watch the stream. It's really interesting.
  
  Greg Lobanov 17:07
  Yeah, it's really really fun. Yeah, but it is different. It's not really it doesn't really feel like like I'm not even watching the game itself almost right. Or it's like I'm not It's not like I'm like, ooh, like, Look how funny that Joker it was. It's really like we're just what yeah, we're watching the person's like reactions and watching how much fun they're having and like, what stuff they make you know, and laugh laughing at the stuff that they add to the game because that's like, where so much of this games I feel like like life comes in is when you the game just gives you a blank canvas and are like, hey, draw something in this you know, in this style, whatever. And seeing what people do with that like that's the fun part for me right seeing like Yeah, yeah, yeah, so much. Yeah, the format is like that's almost like the game is almost like a setup and then we let the the players that when actually makes the punch line for a lot of it. So the gods that we're watching for
  
  Phil 18:06
  you know, I'm glad to hear that especially the this kind of idea of like, being a voyeur watching people experience these, like, kind of like pretty emotionally resonant moments. And, you know, speaking to this idea of like, you're kind of watching people's creativity play out on the screen, you know, to two themes that that really stuck out to me in the game were, I think, something that anybody that makes any kind of art, or, you know, any kind of creative thing can relate to and that's, you know, impostor syndrome, and self doubt and like, especially in the wake of like social media, where you share things and like sometimes you get a lot of exposure and sometimes you don't and kind of navigating those those emotions, I'm curious, like, you know, for for the listeners, you know, chicories kind of like a Zelda like, adventure game with a heavy bent towards the player creativity and exploration and there's all these side quests and different characters. But baked within that is this kind of this emotional journey of like self discovery, and I'm curious how you all kind of came to that idea or like those mechanics as you are making the game and maybe why you you wanted to focus in on those those ideas.
  
  Greg Lobanov 19:27
  Right, that is the big question. The like, the little like, starting seed for this game was the paintbrush mechanics like, are actually i Yeah, even smaller that like I knew there really was just like question of, can you make a game where the player is drawing all the time as like, their main interaction with everything. And there were like a lot of little attempts and prototypes at at things kind of around that. Before I kind of figured out like the top down Zelda perspective was like, a huge, like eye opening moment where I realized this game was actually going to work where Before then I've been trying stuff like platformers and puzzle game stuff. And it was not clicking together at all like, but once we kind of figured out the Zelda thing, because the cool thing with the Zelda style, like x, or like, like view is that the entire screen is a thing to draw on. And like, you know, the puzzles come from the way things react to the pain. Whereas in like other genres, like, for example, one thing we tried was like a platformer, where you're drawing the platforms of the person to jump on. And then it's like, how do you make a really hard? Like puzzle with that? Well, I guess you make areas where they can draw platforms, or you make it so they don't have so much ink. And then they're not thinking about drawing anymore. They're like, solving puzzles with drawings and like, whatever, right? Whereas this game, like, the thing was always, like, doing like the same thing. Yeah, right, you find one way to do something, do it over again, we want people to actually like to draw, like, make pretty pictures and like, yeah, and those, it was really hard, like, so a lot of a lot of decisions in this game kind of came from trying to make people do things that way. Like I was, we've been going through some of our notes from early on recently, because we're putting together kind of in our book for Kickstarter backers, and I kind of like forgot about ideas and things you're trying but like, even like the story premise was actually a really hard thing to figure out because we wanted the story about making art and drawings. And it was really hard to come up with, like a conflict or a world where that made any kind of sense, because so many ideas we tried were like, like, for example, oh, it's a world where all the bridges in Connect, all the areas gotten knocked down. And your paintbrush like feels like you know, reconnects the areas or something, which sounds really cool will totally be a great game. But then it's like, you're not making drawings, you're just like filling in bridges to connect places, right? It doesn't matter what you draw. And when people have problems, the problems are these bridges. They're not whereas in this game, right. And, you know, the aim was like, everyone you talk to you, the thing they want you to do is to draw a picture, right? And like the the problem they have is, there's no pictures drawn right now, or their houses and colored in, or this canvas doesn't have art in it or something. So you were trying to figure out, like, everything came back to that it was like, how do we make that like, the problem the player is solving and like, make them make them have to draw and have fun basically, doing it sounds
  
  Ben 22:05
  like it was almost a Death Stranding game to start with where you're thinking about bridges and creating bridges between different spaces, something
  
  Greg Lobanov 22:14
  like that. I mean, we were trying anything, right. Like we almost were, yeah,
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 22:18
  the whole concept, just kind of like, yeah, we weren't, we weren't thinking about our company at the time. But like, but like, I feel like that's what, like, I really enjoyed Academy, but, but like, the like, the drawing is definitely not like, it's not really like an artistic thing in that game. It's just like a, it's like a, you use this tool and you like fill this, fill this periphery. And when you feel discouraged, and you fill this bowl, and it's like poof, and it's repaired, or you like draw a circle around a tree and the tree blooms, like, it's like, just like the way of using the this like power that the character has. But it's not like, yeah, you're not gonna sit there and like, do graffiti on a wall or anything like that.
  
  Greg Lobanov 22:53
  Yeah, there's a lot of games that have art as like a main mechanic in them. But the I've just never played one where the player actually has fun drawing as like the thing they mainly do. And that was, that was a thing of year. And I was just trying to figure it out. And I was like, if I can't figure out a way to do that, then I'm not making this game. But the point is, like, if I can find a way to make that the cool, fun part that thing people actually do. Like, that's the game I wanted to try to make. And it was really hard.
  
  Ben 23:17
  Yeah. And I think it allows it to get at this question. So well of like, what is it mean to be able to create, and to be able to create and kind of influence the world around you? And I feel like, you know, one of the questions that the game poses is like, what does it mean, when there's only one person who gets to have that power to kind of create and shape the world, both in terms of like, the burden that it puts on them, when everyone around them has different ideas about like, what they should be doing, but also on like, you know, you're kind of having the sole control over how someone's house looks. And so I'm wondering how you think about, I guess that question for yourself, and like, what is the role of kind of art and creation in your life and how you think about both art and creation and kind of access to to art and creation? That's another really big question. Sorry.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 24:12
  Yeah, it's like, but like, once we kind of had that, once we knew, like, what we wanted the game to feel like that, like, completely informed, like what it ended up being about, and yeah, like, once, once we had the idea of like, this brush that draws on the world, we thought like, Okay, well, who, who uses it? Is there just one I guess there is just one, like, what does that mean? And like, like, the world kind of grew from that, from that main idea. And then like, and then like, the characters and their experiences grew from that idea as well. Like, like, what Yeah, exactly. Like, what would that mean, for somebody and like, what would that mean for this like, this, like multigenerational, like? Yeah, like like yeah, a thing of the wielder. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we does that, that would that do to a person? Like,
  
  Greg Lobanov 24:59
  yeah, you Yeah, this
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 25:00
  society.
  
  Greg Lobanov 25:01
  Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's like we everyone works in this game, like, we create stuff as like, that's like our mode of living basically. So I feel like it was kind of cool and good that the premise of the game kind of gave us a good route like groundwork to then kind of just talking about our own experiences, you know, like, what, like, what our takes were, and all this stuff, because, because the game was just so about that, and we find I find it really hard not to, like, you know, like, just just, you know, even based on the premise, right? Because like Alex is talking about, like, You're a dog who winds with his magic paintbrush and color the world in. And like you have this hero who's like the famous artist, but you're not them. You're the janitor. Like, there's just so much like drama already built into that premise that we just felt impossible not to talk about or touch on or kind of, like dig into. And obviously, we all Yeah, all have our own. Like, nothing in this game is one to one with with anything, you know, that we've experienced, per se, but like, you never know, this game is definitely informed by our, you know, our experience of that stuff. And I'm, I was like, really excited, actually, to get to even tell this kind of story. Because, yeah, like, I am obsessed with making stuff. I think it's the coolest thing in the world. Like, it's totally just what I wanted to do. 24/7 And it's the way I relate to most people like in my life, you know, like, all my friends are, like creative types are artists. And all we really just talked about is like, what are you working on? Like, what's your problems right now? Like, what are you stuck on? What are you doing next kind of thing. And so it just felt like, this was a way for me, at least I get to have that kind of conversation, like through the game itself, you know, to kind of talk to a player about that stuff. And, you know, just be myself like, and that's why like we were saying it was like surprising, I guess in some ways how, how much people relate to stuff that felt so specific in this game, because a lot of it is like really specific, you know, like, it's really like, it's so almost autobiographical, how much it's about just us and our feelings about you know, like making stuff, I guess. I don't know, Alexis is rolling her eyes a little bit, but
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 27:04
  just, yeah. Nothing. Nothing is one to one. Yeah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 27:09
  yeah. Nothing is one to one. But it's different than like telling a story about like a bard in a magical land, which is like my last game, right? Like it this one. This one feels way more close. And like, literal, you know, and like, you know, some so they're they're definitely lines in this game that I feel like we're just plucked straight out of like, you know, your real life conversation or something that I've had before, you know, but that kind of thing, which I haven't had in a game before? Because yeah,
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 27:32
  yeah. And yeah, there were a lot of a lot of conversations in this game that we would just like, go go back over and over and over and over and over again. And then like, every time we would play test it with somebody, like grill them about like, like, how it hit them. Like, yeah, just trying to, like, like, yeah, we would, we would obviously, like start out like writing something that felt the felt right. For us. And then like, yeah, try to make sure that it's like, was having the same impact for like, our play testers. Yeah.
  
  Phil 28:06
  That kind of that connection with Greg, you're talking about, like, an a game, we're kind of the the main mechanic is allowing the player to kind of create whatever they want, or like, they have a blank canvas, and they can create whatever they want. Like, how do you figure out what the friction is or what the conflict is, I feel like I really empathize with like, what y'all are saying I was like, and maybe this is just because, you know, I'm an artist myself. And I'm, like, always kind of anxious about what other how others are going to respond to my work. But one thing that I really appreciated that the game did, I don't know if this was intentional or not, is this like the fact of you know, you walk into like, one of the stores and they have you make a t shirt design or, you know, you do a canvas or you go to the art class and you do a drawing, and then you hear the responses from the other students or the other residents, I found it like a really interesting, kind of maybe internal conflict of like, Oh, I hope that they're going to like it, or I hope that the characters are going to say something. Nice. And then. I don't know, I guess I'm just kidding. I found that those aspects of the game were to so it's such a joy to experience and I don't think I've really experienced that much. And in games otherwise.
  
  Greg Lobanov 29:25
  Yeah, I mean, that that stuff was really like, fun to do, honestly. Like, the characters. I like to set all the character designs and like that, like was a huge influence on their personalities, and in a way, you know, it kind of felt like, yeah, just thinking about, like, how all these different kinds of personalities would would interact and feel about like the art that you did, and just kind of riffing on on that feeling, I guess. In some ways, like I like there were like, I yeah, I don't want to I don't think it was a missed opportunity. But sometimes I just like wonder like, do we We had it was hard like the reactions. But this that was really hard, like how much we could do because, for example, something I was always thinking about was like, Okay, what if a little kid is playing this game, right? Or, or even actually another way to frame this is like, whenever you do any drawing in the game, we never, we have no way to know how you feel about what you just drew. Right? Like, we don't know, if you spent five hours in this drawing, or, and like, you know, it's your best work you've ever done. Or if you just drew a budget, and they're laughing about it, like, and you just submitted a blank canvas, or you just submitted a blank drawing. I mean, like, we could check, you know, like, like, there's, like, technically, like, algorithmically, right, or we could check for some of the stuff. But on some level, like, we don't really know how you feel about it. Like, and that's, and that makes it really hard with all this stuff. Like the fact that you enjoyed the character like interactions or like responses, like that's that, you know, I'm really proud of that. Because, like, when you were doing all this stuff, it felt like such an uphill battle to like, like, find just the right way to do this stuff. Where, you know, whether you liked what you did or not, it felt like the game kind of respected that or, like, gave you space to feel however you felt about it, you know, like didn't didn't tell you how to feel about it. Because yeah, and that was just that was just, like, constantly difficult. Read, like, and trying to make it like, Yeah, feel like landed and feel genuine and stuff to you. Because you want it to feel genuine like we wanted, we didn't want players to feel like, you know, like, we're just like, we're just saying stuff, right? Like, we want it to feel like it's a valid reaction to something that you did. But yeah, it's an experience
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 31:30
  that like that, like, I feel like at least Yeah, I feel like that's the experience that I've had at least a lot like posting online, like, like, no matter how I feel about, about something, like, there's gonna be a whole range of ways that other people feel about it. Like, yeah, even if, like, sometimes I'll, yeah, sometimes, sometimes you'll, you'll share something that you feel that you've like, spent a long time on and feel like really, really good about and just kind of, and gets, like a lukewarm reaction. Or you'll or you'll share something that you didn't like, in like, 10 minutes and, and people will really, really enjoy it and really connect with it.
  
  Greg Lobanov 32:07
  Yeah, it's like, yeah, surprising how real it is. Right? For the, at the end of day for the reactions, the characters have nothing to do with what your work actually is, in some ways. It's like, yeah, that's my experience. He was releasing games like, yeah, I really so many games at so many different scales, and there's no correlation between how much effort I put in and what people's reaction is. So
  
  Ben 32:30
  Alexis, you mentioned something interesting before, which is like, kind of play testing the dialogue, to try to get, you know, feel like you're trying to create a certain reaction in terms of like, how the conversations are going, or how people are responding to art. And I yeah, I'm wondering what that's, that feels like, to me very much a microcosm of like, what we're talking about here, which is like, like, creating something and also like trying to, you know, be aware of like, what the response of it to it is going to be? And so like, yeah, like, what is that process? Like, as you're like, creating something trying to like, gauge what the response will be. And then also, you know, circling it back into this broader piece that feels like it a lot of ways it is about, you know, creation and people's responses to that.
  
  Greg Lobanov 33:17
  Yeah, I mean, the stuff that we were kind of putting the most attention towards worthy, really, like more intense emotional conversations in the game.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 33:24
  Yeah, yeah. Especially everything to do with like, yeah, we need to do like, like degrees. Issues with depression and like, yeah, obviously, like, pieces.
  
  Greg Lobanov 33:36
  impostor syndrome. Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 33:40
  Yeah. Like the, the, like, I would, I would say, the number one, like, he just fear that I had, like, throughout the, throughout the process of the game, and the number one thing that I kept, like, coming back to was like, I do not want anyone to, to play this game. And think that what we're saying is, that, like, struggling with depression, makes you a bad person, or makes you a person who is incapable of doing things. Which like, which, like, is potentially every that you could get from like earlier parts of the game. I feel, I feel I feel like it's something that like that, like, it's gotten to a lot more deeply and more granularly like later in the game, but
  
  Greg Lobanov 34:26
  it's also just the kind of thing where, like, whenever whenever you leave space for interpretation, the Korean talking about something that's so personal like that, you know, you know, people are going to play this game relate to it. So whenever you leave when you have something that people are connecting to, but you're also leaving stuff open for interpretation, like you're giving them room to insert, like a read out of it that like is not what you intended. I feel like you probably both deal with that a lot. Just with writing in general, right. And that's totally on that experience. And like I you know, it's like one it's one thing if like, we tell a joke, it doesn't line with people like whatever. I don't care about that so much. But when you're playing with people's like hearts and feelings cuz you know, you don't want to fuck that up. Like, I don't want someone who struggled with depression to play this game then, you know, like feel like done dirty or feel like the game is telling them that they're a bad person.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 35:09
  Or even or even that like or even that like, like, like we didn't want to give the impression that like that, like these characters had these issues and they all got completely resolved by the end of the game and however Yeah, that was that was also not what we
  
  Greg Lobanov 35:20
  wanted. There's, there's, there's Yeah, like a million ways that you could read it that we wouldn't want people to so yeah, it was yeah, a lot of work just trying to make trying to make sure basically that like for people who had a personal connection with that stuff that it was that like, you know, basically ask them like, hey, like how did you feel about that? What did this mean to you? Like, how do you deal with this character and making sure that, you know, it's not about making sure they like it, but at least making sure that like, their takeaway is what we want it to be right? You don't have to like chicories a person but at least like you understand like, why she is the way she is or something right? Kind of thing.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 35:53
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's never gonna like mirror anybody's experience like one to one, obviously. But like, but like it shouldn't really because like, it's like chicories person. And and yeah, everyone. Yeah, everybody. Yeah, we've seen before. Everyone's got a different experience. But like, I feel like there's there's like things that will feel more. Feel more genuine. If you like, put more specific stuff in there. Right, then then just kind of like vaguely talking about it. Yeah, in a way that doesn't feel like personal.
  
  Greg Lobanov 36:33
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's not like it's a game about like, mental illness. It's game about, like, these specific people and like, they're really specific flavor of like problem they're having. And that's that's like a huge part of it. But also, yeah, also, of course, yeah. Like the, the potential problem like if Yeah, we did, if we screwed it up. Yeah. So that's, that's why I put so much attention to that stuff. Yeah, obviously, everything in the game we hoped people would like to write. So there was there was effort in everything to make sure it was like up to a level of quality. But I think like, yeah, that there's nothing else I really felt a worry about. Like with a lot of it. It's like, it feels like almost improv, like, you're kind of playing along and telling jokes and doing fun stuff and giving the player things to do and it's like, something like Lance and might not land. That's okay. But yeah, yeah, the, the mental health stuff is like, where, where it's not okay, if it doesn't land.
  
  Phil 37:30
  Yeah, I mean, kind of, well, two things, I think the first I will I just want to say that. Yeah, mechanically, it's interesting hearing about, like, the genesis of coming up with the mechanics of like, play in relation to painting and everything. And another like, kind of really small thing I was talking to Ben about, the game that I really loved was even all the way down to little things like the help, essentially the help function of like you call your, your, your mom, and she kind of gives you a little bit of an eye a hint of like, what you need to do next. And little stuff like that I found, like, so great in terms of like character building moments, because you know, you you call and it's like a conversation with your parent. And then you see, like, the dad's hand kind of coming in. And it functions right, as I'm on this twofold front of like, you get a little bit of a character B. But then it's also like, Okay, here's literally what you need to do. And this works so much better than I think and some other implementations that kind of take you out of the experience, and then kind of tell you what you need to know. And then you back in.
  
  Greg Lobanov 38:34
  Right? Yeah, I mean, we were always looking for stuff like that, like, just in general, like being genuine and trying to tell something that felt honest, the characters is like always our number one priority. I feel like with any of this stuff we do. Yeah, I mean, the parent and phone call thing was like, I feel like such a almost like lucky break. Like, there were there a lot of things you wanted to do. And like I was like, trying to think of ways to do them. And that one kind of thing in the game kind of solved so many problems at the same time. It was just like, Yeah, great. Great, how well it worked. I'm really happy with that, too. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
  
  Ben 39:13
  Speaking of not getting the wrong reads out of the game, I wanted to ask about, you know, Phil and I have kind of been interested in, like political messaging in games, and I'm wondering, you know, it felt to me like there is a pretty clear political message to this game, but I'm gonna run it past Yeah. Okay. You know, it feels like this idea of this brush as almost a divine right, passing from, you know, one individual to the next generation to generation. And then at the end, obviously, you know, that is in a way democratized and everybody has the option of getting their own brush to create and paint possibly. I'm wondering if that is, you know, is that something that was intentional or something that kind of came out, you know, over the course of production?
  
  Greg Lobanov 39:56
  We had, like, I think like shifting ideas wasn't how the game was going to end for a while. But at some point about halfway through development, we kind of figured out what the ending was actually going to be. And I think it
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 40:09
  definitely says something about, like, how we feel about art, for sure.
  
  Greg Lobanov 40:13
  Yeah. Yeah. Because that's the that's the thing we were I think we were looking for along the way, right, when we were trying to find out what ending was going to feel right. Like, the reason why we didn't go with, I don't remember what actually how else the game was gonna end. But like, it was always a matter of like, you know, we wanted whatever would however the game ends, it's like, people are always gonna remember that as that's what the game is about, or that's what it says. So it's super critical, that like, whatever you do for that, like, it's something that you really, you know, believe in that you are like, willing to stand by basically. Because,
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 40:44
  yeah, flavor is how the entire rest of the game feels.
  
  Greg Lobanov 40:47
  Yeah. And it was important, it was important to figure out before we got too far into it, too, because, yeah, if you just wander with direction, whistling, then you get and you're like, Well, I guess the game just ends there like that you can leave me with a horrible taste in their mouth. So like, in a sense, yeah, I guess it was intentional. I mean, it's like, absolutely consistent with what I think we sort of believe in, as artists and like, how, you know, like, it's, it kind of was like, you know, by the time you get there, it really just, it does feel like this is the only way the game really could. And this is how it felt to us. So, yeah,
  
  Ben 41:22
  yeah. And even it's like, I feel like mechanically, what's interesting and smart is that it feels like it's there. From the beginning, I I'm someone who's very, very bad at arts, but I feel like the game is inviting you to, to do painting from the drop. And so it feels like that, that end conclusion feels like it's almost seated in that, like, from the drop, you're learning how to create, and you're learning how to paint within this space, which like, I think coming in as someone who's like, very not comfortable painting, I feel like I'm very bad at that stuff. It felt like it was like echoing the kind of message or the ending of that game? In some ways.
  
  Greg Lobanov 42:00
  That's cool. Yeah, no, I'm totally glad you got that takeaway from it. I do remember now, like, like, one other because this is something we were going through notes, there was something like, there was a point, like in our very first document was like, for the end of the game, maybe there's like, everyone gets a brush. Or maybe it should be like, the main character is like a super good power for wielder or something. And it's like more about their realization of like, their individuality or something.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 42:25
  There very different. Super. Yeah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 42:27
  super different. Right? Like, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I am really happy with the way we did with it. Because again, yeah, it just totally feels like it's what the game should be about. Yeah. And there's, there's always like, the dance of like, what, you know, you feel like you can kind of, I don't know, convince people of that to make them feel genuine with because like, yeah, I honestly, like there was a constant struggle in this game with the, the, that that the player character who you play as, like their internal struggle, because he thinks they're dealing with imposter syndrome. But it exists in this really weird layer where like, you're playing as a person who has imposter syndrome. So like, for example, something that we really felt like, you know, should have been in this story, but isn't, it's a time when like, your player character draw something, and they're like, oh, I don't like this drawing, I just did. You know, like, I don't feel so good about that. Like, totally feels like something that like would make sense like character to do. But we could never do that ever. Because we don't know what you just drew. We don't know how you feel about it. Like, no matter no matter how we frame it, we just don't know like, what you what you were feeling going into it, right. So like, by that same way, right? Like making the ending of the game really focused on like, their confidence, or like they make something that's like impressive or special or something. It's like, we just can't do that we because we can't know. Maybe the end of the game you feel like you're worse at drawing than when you started, right? Like we just don't know. So it couldn't be about that. And it's like, instead completely about like, the stuff outside of that, right? Like not even about the drawings themselves about like how you feel about your drawings, or like how he how you really feel about yourself, not even connected to the art that you're doing. Right. But it's such a it's such a weird line to toe. And it makes stuff hard because I would try and try to thread that needle and try to find that, like, that tone that like feels genuine is like is genuine is honest. But like, yeah, it connects to your experience. And yet anyway, it's complicated.
  
  Phil 44:28
  Well, you know, kind of continuing on in that realm. I'm curious, like, Alexis, as you were developing the different characters and everything for the game. I mean, it seems like it'd be a really challenging game in particular, because it's a game about you know, player creativity and like allowing that agency of the player to find their own voice or whatnot with with their art. While also I mean, chicory. The game has a very distinct art style. I'm curious like what that was like for you kind of developing the characters and thinking about you know how they would look and I'll and everything involved with that.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 45:11
  I think about like when I first I took I took a lot of a lot of inspiration from like Madeline's background not Ellenberger who did the whole the environment. Environment. Yeah, I, if I was feeling kind of like, kind of like
  
  yeah, if I was like, feeling a little bit directionless about about a character, I could always like, go and look at their stuff and see how their like linework linework looked and like, yeah, take take inspiration from that, to get started on design to make somebody who like felt like they fit in the world. Yeah, yeah. No, I felt I felt like I had a lot of freedom designing characters. Yeah, I think we kind of just like, Yeah, I can kind of just think about somebody who would be fun to design and then like, Yeah, I did chat with Gregor. Like, look at the big list of of, like, kind of character profiles that Greg wanted to put in the game. And yeah, I would always always have like something something interesting to start off with.
  
  Greg Lobanov 46:25
  I think we did a pretty good job at establishing like, the boundaries early on. So like, when we were in the early prototype phase, if we didn't know we didn't know the game is gonna be black and white at first. And then the Madeline came on to do the environment stuff. And Madeline's background wasn't like scenes and comics and stuff. There. Our work is like super cool. They and they it looks exactly like how this game looks like this game is basically just like a zine. Yeah, that makes sense. But yeah, so like, their background wasn't in games, and I wanted to work with them, because I felt that it was so cool. And then yeah, and Alexis was an amazing character designer, who I also wanted to work with, to do like, all these animal characters and stuff, but basically, like we decided, you know, black and white world, like, here's kind of what the backgrounds look like. And Alexis is going to draw, like, you know, characters with black line art and empty white areas that player can color in. And they're like, about this big, and, you know, like, whatever, right? And that's, that's it, and then everything else. It's like, once like, once you know what your rules are, like, what you're allowed to do, then it's like, you feel you can do anything inside that box. And that's like, the fun. That's when it gets really fun. So I feel like there wasn't, I mean, it's nice. And you can find that stuff, right? Because it wasn't like we were constantly coming up with into friction, like, oh, we can't do this, because whatever, or I guess we I guess you were in little ways, right? Alexis was like the, the characters layer and stuff like and then a little a lot of Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 47:44
  It was like pretty. It was like pretty early on that we that we played tested. And somebody was like, originally, you could only call the characters in one color. And I played just like I really, really, really want to call it like they're the person and the clothing, different colors. And we're like, yeah, that seems doable.
  
  Greg Lobanov 48:01
  Actually, actually, we were like, I was like, that seems impossible. We shouldn't ever do that.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 48:06
  And I was like, Who has the minigame before? I was like, Yeah, let's use fine. Why not? That's basically my response to anything that anybody would be like, let's put this in the game. And I'd be like, Yeah, let's do it. I'd be like, Ah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 48:18
  this was the constant. This is this is definitely and I am actually really grateful that like, this was on the project like that, like color to it. Because yeah, like, I mean, because of my experience, I'm like, to a fault. Like, you know, always focus on efficiency, and, you know, focusing on what this like, really finish things I like to finish things
  
  Ben 48:39
  can't relate, I don't know what that's like.
  
  Greg Lobanov 48:41
  Yeah, and especially, I think, coming from an animation background, where, like, when you're working on an animation, like, like a TV animation kind of thing, right? Like you set your camera up a certain way you make your drawings and you know, the player is gonna see it the same way every time. Sorry, the viewer is gonna see the same way every time, right? And so you every, all the deal all the time you spend putting in details, like appears on the screen in some way, but with games, it's like, you know, something that seems and this is, you know, something that seems like such a simple feature, like, oh, make every character have to color areas on them. It's super complicated, because it like multiplies against every other system in the game and can add, like so many more like parts to everything. And I remember at the time, it was like, Yeah, because the
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 49:21
  way that I was delivering the characters to Greg, like, I was animating them in flash and then exploiting png sequences to send to him. And so like, every thread that every every different layer had to be sent as a different sequence of PNGs. And that meant that I had to be really careful in how I was designing the characters so that I didn't have like, because like we wanted to limit we wanted to limit it to like a certain number of layers per character so that I wouldn't be sending him like 200 PNGs for this one character. Yeah. And so it meant I could only I had to like, make sure it didn't I didn't have a character where there was like close and then body and then close and then bye And then close. Yeah. Which is really easy to do if you're not thinking about it very carefully. While you're while you're doing it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, just like being very, very careful about like the amount of detail. So if you join them, like zoomed in quite far, and like, I usually put a fair amount of detail on characters, but because they're so tiny in the actual game, that like, Yeah, I had to, I had to force myself to, like, stay zoomed out. When I was mostly the final pass of any design to like, go like, that's, that's too many buttons. You can't like, see all those buttons from this far away.
  
  Greg Lobanov 50:34
  Things like that. Yeah, it's, the rules didn't change. Thankfully, like we once we knew what the rules were, at least they were always the same. And yeah, it was always kind of the same problem that we were having to solve with, like, how do you make this character and it just two layers? Like, yeah. But it was fine. Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 50:52
  But I definitely loved like, yeah, putting, I love putting, like, little sort of, like hidden things in the game. Like some of my favorite animations, I think that like, hardly anybody's gonna see. Like, like, the, like the clothing swap. People, there's like, there's like the lizard guy who runs the clothing shop. And then there's this Pine Mountain who runs and gets to close. And if you ask them to run and get close, then they come back and they're tired. And then if you ask them again, to run and get close, without leaving the shop, they come back, and they're even more tired. And then you ask them again, and they come back, and they're even more tired. And that's like, so they've got like, five different animations. Yeah, and those were really, really, really fun to do and, and bring me a lot of happiness even there. Or maybe because I know, I'm never gonna see them. Yeah, so it feels more special when somebody does.
  
  Phil 51:47
  That's funny. I mean, I feel like when I'm playing games, I'm somebody who, you know, story is definitely like, the biggest thing I care about. But oftentimes, in the same token, you know, we were talking to Brooke mags, who was a, a Narrative Designer, at Remedy Entertainment, and worked on control. And we were talking about, like, how in control, you know, you can go and do all these side quests, and talk to the characters numerous times and hear all these different dialogue options. And, you know, despite the fact that I'm a writer, and I love story, I'm definitely like a player who's I listened to the main dialogue, and then like, I'm never clicking the extra dialogue again. Yeah, but and chicory. It's funny, I, it was the complete opposite. Like, I would like sit and I just talked to the characters, like, all the way through, and I think it was because, like, early on, there was like some character, who I think was when you're making the the doughnut, or like the t shirt, who was like, oh, you know, these kids, they don't have time to talk to anybody. And I was like, fuck you. I got time. So I ended up just talking to them, and they'll there is nothing left. I loved those little bits.
  
  Greg Lobanov 52:53
  Thanks. Yeah, yeah, we cared a lot about making sure that every character kind of had like, their own personality and stuff. That's another thing where like, I feel like a lot of other like, kind of RPG games like this, you know, you wouldn't, you would draw like 10 different people. And then just like have them show up everywhere. And just give it a different name or something, right, but we made every single person have their own name and their own art, completely unique animations and stuff. And that was just like, that's the kind of thing that I do really love doing. Because I do think it adds a lot to the game, but it is also just like, tons of work. But I think I think that's part of what makes that's like stuff enjoyable is like they're, you know, every person does have something unique to say and like, you're not going to find that anywhere else. And we also like, make a very strong point of not repeating anything, like if someone if you if someone's out of new text, and they you can't interact with them anymore, there's just no prompt. So you know, anytime you see something you can interact with, you know, that you're gonna see something new if you do, and I think that's like, a really valuable, like, piece of knowledge for a player to just like have right because then then like, yeah, every one every character you see every prompt that comes up to talk to somebody you just know is like, oh my god, like I could see that and even the decision not to see that the sale is interesting because you know that like you chose not to look at something that you could have that was gonna be unique or something right. Like, it always adds to that. I don't know Yeah.
  
  Ben 54:35
  I have I have kind of a more general question, which is like, I wonder what for both of you your relationship to like your art and your creation is what it is also your job. I know for me, I feel like it shifts a lot when it's something that I'm doing as a job job and it starts to feel like work and it starts to feel maybe less creative in some ways. And so you know, what is your relationship with the things that you create? When they are also the things that are your, you know, employment.
  
  Greg Lobanov 55:05
  You should answer that Alexis.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 55:09
  Yeah, it really, really depends on on what the job is. Like, yeah, a lot, a lot of the early a lot of the early stuff that I did like, after I like when I when I first when I first started working in animation I would I would, I would get really, really get like, emotionally involved in like the first part of the process. I did a lot of jobs that were like I would be doing, like almost the entire thing. I wouldn't do the script, but I'd be doing like character designs and and storyboards and animatic. And, like background illustration, and animation and editing and everything. That sounds nuts, but everything else. Yeah, and I would just like, I would find parts of the project that I like, no matter what the project was, even if it were something that I had, like, no. Like, I like, gosh, get some, like very corporate stuff. And like, like health and safety videos, sometimes those are cool. There's some pretty this is pretty fun ones that were I felt like yeah, like, like, in classroom sort of videos for kids and stuff. This there's some cool stuff. But yeah, there would always be something about the project that I could like, that I could like, dig into and like and like either learn something, or, or like are drawn some experience or something like interests that I had. Yeah, and it wouldn't always be like the entire project. But like, I yeah, I would have to like really, really have fun doing the design or doing the animatic or like, like figuring out some new way to animate. And like, yeah, make it interesting. That way. Yeah. And I think I'm like, I'm like, Yeah, I'm grateful to all of my early projects that I was able to do that happen just because they were tiny, tiny projects. And, and so I could like have a fair amount of creative control. Yeah, and then like, occasionally, there'd be a project where it was just really, like, just really just get it done. And I didn't like it didn't really feel like a creative thing. And when I'm working on things like that, I I will do a lot more art outside of work. And, yeah, kind of just like, like, use skills that I have during the day and then and then make something outside of work. Yeah. Particularly interesting. Because, because I was really, really, really invested in it. Like, I mean, I'm really, really invested. And, and I think it was a lot more. I don't know, it was, it was a lot more stressful. It felt like a lot higher pressure because of that. Because I felt like I really had to be like on like, for, like skills and creativity all the time. And, and yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, it felt it felt like a kind of sometimes it felt like it was like the easiest project I've ever had to play if thinking things are flowing. And sometimes it felt like the hardest project. If I if I felt like I needed to get something like to a level that I didn't think it was at, especially if I just like had to move on from it. Yeah, like, like, there's a couple of designs that I'm just like, not entirely happy with. And those are just like little sort of thorns in my side. And I'm sure nobody could even like if I asked somebody to guess which catches they are. I'm sure they wouldn't be able to guess.
  
  Phil 58:46
  Yeah, they're gonna say they're great. That's not my favorite character. Yeah.
  
  Greg Lobanov 58:50
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they really do. Yeah.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 58:55
  But yeah, but it was also like, incredible to be able to work on to get the opportunity to work on something that I could, like, pour so much into, and yeah, and feel so, so passionate about.
  
  Ben 59:08
  Totally, totally. And I really like what you're saying about. Because I feel like it's so true. When there's like the office see aspects of the things that you're doing. It's very easy, I think there when it's like when you get critiques at work, or whatever you're like, Alright, whatever. Like, that's not a thing I care very deeply about in the same way. But when it's the kind of creative side of you that you'd like, I think, feel more invested in, and then you're doing it as a work and then it gets some feedback. It's like, it's hard not to be like, Oh, this feels like it's speaking to who I am as a person in a way that's like, harder to grapple with in some ways.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 59:41
  Yeah, yeah. And but even like, yeah, and even like the office II stuff, like, I got it, I like it. When I when I started working in South happy that was like, the first time that I'd ever had like a director. Like a like an art director who was like yeah, like, like for John Jerry, for instance, I was doing um, polls which is just like, like episodic designs basically. And that show has like, such a show has an art style. And things need to look exactly how they need to look. And, and you can tell immediately if something does not look like Tommy. So it took it took a little bit to like to like really, really like, like, get into that upsell and like, like doing that was like it was not it is not the way that I did it, actually, and it felt very weird and wrong. But it was but it was it was like fun in a different way. It was fun to learn how to draw in that style and fun to have an art director who would be like, Oh, actually, like, need to make this toe like, more more bubbly. You can't like you can't just like mesh. Those together. They gotta be like really separated and be like, Oh, it's weird, but Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. That's so specific. Very specific things. Yeah. Winter lip. This is not relevant.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:01:08
  Yeah, I mean, my my like, relationship to this stuff is really different from like, this is I feel like because I have my background has always been in making indie games. And where I think Alexis is like, really focused on making stuff that's like, really good and refined and precise and detailed. I'm way more about just like getting to the end as fast as possible and like, learning how to do it. Do you do it faster next time, like so? Yeah, like, I don't I don't think so much about, like, flaws and stuff when I'm working on it, which is helpful. And I also Oh, man, I totally have the thing. I was gonna say I blanked on it. Oh, yeah, like, I so if my, I guess my main like, development as a creator, like, in over the course of last few games has been, like, if for like, like, my early or indie games I was doing, I was always really like, into doing my own thing, and try and do the weirdest, you know, most weird, cool, creative thing that I could think of. But then naturally, like, people who play it, just don't usually click with that stuff, they don't really get it, or it's like, really hard to make something that like, has this weird idea to it that people also understand. And so for me, like, part of that, like, you know, like, like understanding, okay, so what the reason why this is my job, like, like, what I actually had to do to make this like profitable is I have to learn how to make something that people actually want to play. And sometimes that means, like, making concession or sacrifice on like, the weirdness of the game so that it's like, something people can understand. And I've learned actually to love that. Love that part of the process, and like, really enjoy that part of the process. So like, for me, even going from like Wonder song, my, my previous game to chicory, this one, I think I got, I did such a better job. But that's specifically where this game is still really weird. And it's all like other games, but it does such a better job at kind of meeting players where they're at, and giving them something that they can understand, digest and have fun with and like understand, like, on a genre level, like what they're supposed to do and play. And I just think that's actually great. So kind of like what Texas is talking about, like, once you once you find like problems to solve, then like, that becomes kind of the fun part of the job is like, you know, there's the there's the unbiased or unbridled creativity part where you have crazy ideas, like a painting world. But then, like, a lot of the actual work I have learned to love is like that little problem solving, like, how do you make a painting game that people actually want to paint in? And, you know, like, what genre of game that people would have heard of, can I make this format so that people will enjoy playing it? And like, how do you make a good Zelda game? Like, what does that look like, and that kind of thing. So I've learned to really, really enjoy that that part of it a lot. And that kind of makes the job part of it fun. In some ways. I was I feel like I'm kind of basic, because I like, you know, I really like my job. I like doing it. I'm good. Yeah. Like, you know, like, I definitely, I don't know, yeah, I tend to work like a lot. And I'm really hard on it too, which is like something that you know, it's almost like it's a reverse of what even we say in our own our own game, right? Like chicory is so much about, like, you know, when something becomes your job, like, how do you deal with the pressure of that? And how do you like, how do you like learn to accept that you can step away from you when you don't like it anymore. But my personal experience is actually so much more like, I just love doing this stuff so much. I just want to make more games and I'm already thinking about more games I want to make and ideas for them and like, yeah. So my relationship is really strong. And that's why I really enjoyed making this game in a way too because like, for me, it was yeah, just getting to talk to gain gain to talk about all these different ways that you will come into doing creative stuff and all these different relationships you can have with creative stuff and just how much fun it is to make stuff I think that was for me, like, like, like, most personally, that was the thing that I really want people to kind of get from playing this game was like, how much fun it is to be creative and to make stuff and like, giving people that little boost to like, you know, really feel like oh, like I can make stuff to like, and I can have fun doing this, right? It's not just the thing, that the you you don't have to be like a genius to do this. You don't have to be like special to do this. You don't have to be a professional to do this or be good at this to do this. Like, you can just have fun doing this thing. And that's just great. That's something that I totally feel like I don't always feel like I'm the best person at this job or anything, but I really like doing it. So I just wanted to share that with people. I think more than anything. Yeah.
  
  Phil 1:05:43
  No, that's dope. I think I'm glad you brought up Wonder song because I was I was reading an old interview. And I think something that Ben and I had been talking to a lot of our kind of game industry. Guests about is like this allure to like interactive experiences like interactive creation, or in this case, interactive narratives and, and things like that. And you're you're talking about chicory and you said, overall, the direction of the game, I would say chicory feels way more like a video game than Wonder song did Wonder song was very story focused and totally, totally like a linear experience that feels almost closer to like an animation or cartoon or film or something. And I think to broaden that, for you both like what is it? Maybe for you, Greg, that is so appealing. In the media on like, video games, why is this like the medium of choice for you? And maybe for Alexis, since you're kind of getting into games now more and the design side? What is drawing you in?
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:06:47
  Oh, man, I mean, like, there's a lot of things you can say about video games that are really cool. I mean, at the end of the day, I think selfishly, I just have fun making them. Like I think that I think games are really fun to play. And I it's really fun thinking of rules for games, like, like, ever since I was a little like, kid, I used to love making like board games and card games and stuff. So like, it's just that particular kind of problem solving. And creativity is is just really appealing to me. And I like the way I love how so many other pieces kind of come into it with with games. And like, okay, like, like comparing to other media, for example, like, you know, like comics, obviously, there's tons of components because there's storytelling and art, but games have, like, you know, music and sound design as part of it. I love game soundtracks. And if you compare it to something like film, like with film, there's so many there are so many different parts to it totally. But then film is like a medium where to do all those parts usually means like, you're bringing in a lot of people or you're kind of bringing a lot of expertise that's sort of outside the like, I don't know, the canvas itself, like you're bringing in actors who are performing the stuff you're doing with cameras and lighting and shooting locations. And like, with games, it's like it is it still feels feels to me like it really is at the end of the just the art like that's where all the work goes into and all those specific details of like, the way that I get to focus on it, the things that I get to do every day, and the promise that I get to solve are just super, super fun. And I think something that I was gonna mention before and forgot, she was just how much like I focus on process specifically, like making sure that I enjoy the stuff that I'm doing. Like, that's, that's a huge goal for me with every project, like finding something that is really fun to work on. Because if it's not fun to work on, then I'm I should like I, you know, I think I always remind myself is like, if I'm not having fun working on this, I could just get another job I don't like and make like way more consistent money, right? Like, I could do something where I'm not like like literally just gambling with my life savings every time or like, depending on like Steam users to give me good reviews to make, you know, to make a paycheck or something right? Like I don't have to do that. The reason I'm doing it is because I have to love the process. So like making sure that I'm making a process that I do love that is really fun. And also making sure that when he's working on this game is also having a fun process, right? Like making sure that like you know, they're having fun that they're doing stuff that they enjoy doing that the game isn't asking them to get into stuff that they don't enjoy either. Like all that stuff. I think it's just such an important part of why like that's like if you're gonna make an indie game like you have to do that right? Well there's no point so yeah, I'm totally focused on just having the most fun with the process the whole time. And games are really fun to make so that's my answer
  
  Phil 1:09:32
  and have Alexis for you like since you just this is kind of like your first like really big game just to kind of start off the bat like what is that kind of experience been like? Like what's kind of drawn you and you think you're gonna do more games or is this kind of like chicory? I went out on a 10 out of 10
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 1:10:00
  I just feel like some pressure. It was, yeah, I, I kind of just like, sort of slid into it without really like I didn't. I didn't really have like a goal of working in games it kind of just like, like, I, I knew the team and I and I love Wonder song. And I knew that I really liked Greg's writing. And so like, when, yeah, when it started happening, it like made so much sense to jump on and be a part of it. And I had a really fantastic time working on it. And, yeah, I think I think I really do and work on more games. I really, yeah, I just like my Yeah, I guess you're like reading off the stuff that I that I have done in the past before. I like I like I like working on, like, all sorts of different parts of the projects. Like, I really enjoy it. Like, all the different steps of it. And, and yeah, I feel, I feel like like the way what I really, really want to do is like work on things that I feel invested in with. With a team of other people, like I know, I really like working with other people. And like, working on working on a game like this. I've been able to work like so closely with like everybody in the team. And be able to like, yeah, like, like, talk to talk about the music and talk about the town. Does that talk to Alan about the backgrounds talk to Greg about the story. And the dialogue and stuff? Like we yeah, we talked a lot about the story and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I was thinking about this before. It sounds kind of sounds really, really weird and corny, but, but I don't know, like working on a game, you're kind of like, like, the, the people playing the game are kind of caught of what it finally becomes as well. So it's kind of like you're working with all these people that you'll never paint as well. Like, they're all gonna, like have different interpretations. And that, like, that's like, a part of what the game is, as well. And you get to, like, share it with, with all these different people. And I think because it's, I think, I think because it's interactive, but like, like, people have, like, like, these weird, like, personal experiences with it the like, could never like know, all of and that's really, really cool and interesting. Yeah, yeah. And just like, yeah, being able to kind of, like, shape this thing. And, and, and poke it and prod it and like, add tiny little things to it. Like, like, like, like stuff like stuff like sitting on chairs, like I like insisted to Greg that we that the main character be able to sit on chairs, because that's just the thing that I love doing NBA games, if there's chairs that I want to be able to sit on. And yeah, this I don't really know what the, what the analog to that would be in animation. Like I thought I thought in the past about making like, like a short film was like that. And I've worked on short films with like, with other people. But I don't like like maybe one day I'll have like, a really good idea that I feel like it's it's like important enough to spend like, like, like two or three years making animating a short film. But um, but I really, I really, really love working on like other people's ideas and working collaboratively to like, come up with something that we all feel passionate about. And yeah, it feels like it feels like a game has like a really good opportunity to do that to be shaped by by a bunch of people and yeah
  
  Ben 1:14:00
  this isn't a question I just I really love I really love what you're saying about like to some degree that like video games offer a kind of intimate intimacy that is maybe not available in like other mediums because there is that player interaction that is also like unique for each player in a way that isn't necessarily true sitting and watching a movie or sitting and reading a book where sure we all have different relationships with you know a text or a movie but the movie or the text itself are not like interactive in the same way and are different and changing and shifting in a literal way Yeah. I really I love that yeah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:14:41
  it to actually reminded me of an experience I had like when I was a really I'm a really big fan of Steven Universe and I remember when the show was getting there was like the the the first series at the ending of it there was like this huge like big episode like finale thing. I remember at the time, like there was this you know, it's like it's action packed It's like super pot heavy thing where they go and fight this like big robot or whatever. And I remember feeling at the time I was like, it's just too bad that this is such a like plot heavy episode because all I really wanted was just to spend more time with the characters and just like, hang out and have like one more chat, like, you know, before the big fight, they just went out like, How's Garnett feeling right now, like, what is Amethyst thinking about this or whatever, but there's no time for that. Because, you know, it really like it's, it's in a pace that's kind of going in its own way. And that's, that's exactly the kind of thing that you can do in a video game and in fact, are expected to do in a video game as a creator. And I think that that part of it's really fun, like, you know, like giving the player basically the freedom to engage with the weirdest smallest things and to find the weirdest smallest things and to spend time on the weirdest, smallest parts that like you would never put into a movie or a book or a show because it would be wasting someone's time to actually like, make that part of the journey. Write this, like, long conversation with somebody like right before the ending. And yet, if you're in a game, it's like, so nice to just be able to like, walk, you know, left from the final boss store and just talk to someone for an extra hour, because you want to know how they're feeling right now, you know?
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 1:16:06
  That you can do that, too.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:16:08
  Yeah. Like, if you can provide that. Yeah, and as a creator who just enjoys like, filling worlds with detail and like getting into characters and stuff. Like, I love having that opportunity as a creator. And yeah, and that's, that's something where like, yeah, players get to have a really personal relationship with that, too. Yeah, so yeah.
  
  Phil 1:16:27
  No, I love that. I think, you know, writing for me, you know, has has often been a fairly solitary experience is like something that I kind of do with it in a quiet place by myself, and, you know, whatever. But, um, I think over the years, I'm finding more and more how much I love just collaborating with people on projects, whether it's like, you know, Ben, and I've collaborated on a number of projects in the past, or, you know, other people are even reflecting on, you know, this podcast, like, it started because of a tweet that I made to a friend, who, who, when I was like, oh, I want to talk to game developers about like, their lives. And Ben tweeted at me, and I was like, Dude, we could do that. And then, you know, like, my partner came on and did the art and then our friend Ryan did the music for the show. And it was one of these things where it's like, such a pleasant experience where I feel like I'm constantly like learning and growing. And you know, maybe to wrap us up something, I might be putting y'all on the spot a bit, but I'm curious, like, you know, now that the project largely is wrapped, I'm curious, like, what maybe you two have learned from each other, you know, working on chicory, whether that's like a super technical thing or like something maybe personal and kind of low stakes.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:17:43
  I think Alexis has definitely shown me time and time again, the value of adding small details and things into the game and like yeah, because yeah, I totally have a tendency to just like have a cool idea and then say no to it just because it seems too hard and because I am so focused on efficiency and process and having fun with it. But sometimes just like putting pushing a little bit through the annoying stuff to make something that like has that little like extra detail on spice like is worth it and really fun. And I'm really glad to have her on the project because like, she always shows she always has the coolest ideas for stuff like that. And even even if not all of them make it in like when they do it's because they were like really freaking good ideas. So yeah, I've Yeah, I keep I keep I'm still learning that from Alexis, but I feel like that's a big thing for me
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 1:18:36
  I feel like something that I'm still in the process of learning but something that Greg definitely reminds me of a lot is just like well, getting getting getting things done like like nothing's ever going to be perfect and even if like like something that feels like it's like 90% for you might feel like 100% for someone else or something that feels like Like sometimes I would pour so much time into go past like that and and wouldn't be noticed and then other times I would do just like one drawing of a character and everyone would would love it so like yeah, just like like trusting I guess like trusting myself to to be able to kind of like do a good job on online Yeah. Without without like stressing and and going over something like tend to try and get like like some impossible like, like ideal version of it. Like like yeah if there's like if I'm if I make something and I have like a good feeling about it that like just like trusting that good feeling and not not needing to polish it too much. Yeah, for a number of reasons. Yeah.
  
  Phil 1:19:57
  I feel that I feel like I feel like Ben, Ben and I are like definitely the oh, we need to like, polish it one more time. Before we do before we do it. And yeah, getting that being okay with like, Hey, I'm releasing this thing. Yeah, Greg, good. Give me Give me some of that energy
  
  Ben 1:20:15
  we have, we have a mutual friend who writes a ton. And he'll post like, it'll be like every, like three or four months to be like, Yes, I have completed preliminary work on my next novel. And I'm like, in that span of time, I've maybe like poured over a paragraph for that. So it's always just like, damn, like, give me that give me that good. Good Energy.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:20:37
  Right? I think you have to stop caring if it's good or not. I think that might be tough. Yeah. Good luck.
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 1:20:48
  I don't know, that's exactly true.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:20:50
  I guess I do. I do care if it's good or not. Yeah, and there
  
  Alexis Dean-Jones 1:20:53
  are definitely things that you like, but you're very good at, like, you're very good at doing a first pass and moving on. And then like, later, you'll come back. And, and, and sort of re examine things. But like, because you've gotten so much of the thing done, you're able to see it with, with a lot more context. And I think like, like, do a much more better informed second.
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:21:18
  I feel like I always I just like this urgent gravity, I feel from like the like, like wanting to see the whole thing come together and like wanting to see people play it, I think that's always what I'm thinking about is like that endpoint and I always have that in mind. So everything I'm doing, I'm always thinking like, the shortest route to, to that part of it. And like, and that so so that means means like, okay, like, I'm gonna do a shitty version of this part right now. And I know it's a shitty version. And I know that I can change it later. But I want to like, just have the scaffolding there to get to the next thing to get to the ending to see what the whole thing together so that I can know how to make it all actually good. And then sometimes you realize that all this shitty scaffolding is actually fine. And you don't have to change it. And the game comes out next month. And that's beautiful. And that's life.
  
  Ben 1:22:07
  That feels like a great line to end. Thank you. Thank you both so much for taking the time out of your your evening afternoon and talking to us. Yeah,
  
  Greg Lobanov 1:22:18
  thanks for having us. It was great.
  
  Phil 1:22:40
  Well, that was our conversation with Greg Lobanov. And Alexis Dean Jones, about chicory, a colorful tail. Yeah, I think that this was a really great conversation for us to have around finishing things around, not being so precious with our work. Because at the end of the day, when you're able to finish the thing, you can go back and make it better, right. Like if it's not done at the end of the day. It's it's just an incomplete thing. Right. So I really appreciated that. I don't know what what was kind of the big takeaways here again, Ben,
  
  Ben 1:23:15
  you know, I even though I think that you heard that from from Greg and Alexis, I think afterwards, they also kind of talked about their anxieties around, you know, even after the work is out in the world, like worrying about, you know, people's reactions to it, you heard them kind of talking about, like, watching streamers of the game, and kind of seeing how they were reacting to it. And so it's like, I think that's 100% correct this idea of like, you have to finish the work. But I also think that like, some of that anxiety is is always going to be there around like creating this thing, and still worrying about like, well, how are people going to receive it? And what is the reaction going to be? You know, I don't think the lesson for me is that like, oh, it goes, That feeling is you should just ignore it and it goes away. It's it's still a part of the process. It's just, you know, at the end of the day, like, still got still got to finish that thing for people to be able to react to it.
  
  Phil 1:24:11
  Yeah, and just to golf, that that. That idea of like responding to others response of your work, like what you're saying about when they are talking about like, oh, watching people on Twitch, play the game or reading reviews of the game. I think that's something that not to say like origin story is like, a million listen podcast, and we're like dealing with like, all this reception, or whatever. But like, whether it be origin story, or something where we've written or whatever, I find that I'm still like, it's kind of awkward to respond to others responding to the work, you know. And yeah, that's an interesting kind of experience that you think would go away. The more you do it, but I mean, it hasn't yet Yeah.
  
  Ben 1:25:03
  Speaking of You've Got Mail You've Got Mail I'm going to add just a bit just be clear in post. This is going to stay in but in post I will add the Sleepless in Seattle sound from AOL, the ancient AOL messenger where it goes You've got mail. Maybe even a sound effect from Tom Hanks. Getting up to check his mail. I wish I had a good feeling it would be online now. I don't know if he can clear that. You don't think that's gonna make it through? Okay. All right. All right. But we got some listener email long story short. This is from Dylan. Can I say friend of the pod? Is that appropriate? Friend of the pod friend of the pod Dylan who did our art banner has sent us an email I'm gonna read it to you amazing banner. Amazed like truly incredible. Dylan writes what up? I loved your most recent app about narrative design with Brooke mags, and it reminded me of the deliberate non violent structures of wander song, one of my favorite games. Not only does it subvert the writing trope of the chosen one fighting monsters to save the world, but you are never equipped with any way to harm others you can only sing and I feel like we should we should add an addendum that Wonder song is also created by Greg Lebanon if you didn't catch that. Also the creator of chicory who kind of you just listened to that interview. Dylan continues, the game is so cozy and light hearted while taking huge issues of doubt and the end of the world. But there are so many deliberate choices within its art, gameplay and music that lead towards a very heartfelt story. It's one of the most honest games that I've played, and I still replay from time to time. I was wondering if either of you had a game that really shocked you with its emotional honesty or its thematic design? What games or stories would you call your comfort media? Best? Dylan? Phil, what's it? What's your comfort media?
  
  Phil 1:27:01
  Damn, that's tough. I feel like I've been thinking about this off and on for a while. And it's hard to come to an exact answer. I think the thing that immediately comes to my mind, which isn't necessarily a video game, so it's kind of a cop out is like magic the gathering. You know, I've been playing Magic for over 10 years. And it feels like it's something that's like, just intrinsically a part of me. It's something I can kind of display and not really think of. But I mean, the there isn't much narrative structure in the actual game unless you're like making it up. Right. So I don't think that's a great. A great option definitely is cozy though.
  
  Ben 1:27:42
  Totally, I think I think there's almost like there's two questions there. Which is like the the thematic one which is like, what's a game that like, thematically is very interesting. And maybe you come back to, and then comfort media, which is I feel like it's a very different conversation about like, what's a what's a thing, or a game that you're like, you feel good coming back to? Because I feel like thematically that game that we've we both already played Mairangi generation? Love it. somatically I think compelling I think we've already talked about like, a game that really resonated with me. Comfort media.
  
  Phil 1:28:18
  Fans looking away.
  
  Ben 1:28:20
  Yeah, you know, you know, it's a game that I boot up like, whenever whenever I'm kind of in the dumps, and I just got to kind of roll in a world. It's more when baby I mean, that's a good one. That's a I know, I mean, I guess but also like, it's a simple man's answer,
  
  Phil 1:28:39
  you know? Yeah, I mean, oddly enough, I feel like the game I can probably just, if I were to change the question a bit to to give you something. I feel like honestly, Dark Souls is a game I could like boot up anytime. It's like, okay, I'm just gonna go play it and it doesn't feel stressful.
  
  Ben 1:28:56
  It's because you're good at your I feel like this is just about you being good.
  
  Phil 1:29:00
  Like, like our friend, Greg cassava and already realized. It is what it is.
  
  Ben 1:29:08
  There's there's only there's only one person on this pod worth respecting. And it ain't me.
  
  Phil 1:29:13
  Yeah, so I mean, I think it either be like Magic the Gathering. Another thing that comes to my mind is like Chrono Cross on the original PlayStation. That's a game where, like, I've definitely not beaten that ever again. But I could just boot up the initial bits of it. And the music, just how it makes me feel and what it reminds me of, from when I played it when I was a kid that that really sticks with me.
  
  Ben 1:29:39
  Phil, anything else we got to say about this?
  
  Phil 1:29:41
  Um, no, I mean, I just I would say if you're interested in kind of like a really cute, fun exploration type, adventure game. Trickery is definitely one to look out for. It has like some unique mechanics that you know, maybe not are for everybody, but it's definitely something that I think it's worth checking out, especially in relation to that Dylan's question, if you're interested in something that's going to have mechanics that are in conversation with the narrative, and in conversation with some of the thematic ideas that it's grappling with, this is definitely a game to try for that.
  
  Ben 1:30:18
  Yeah. And it's interesting, I feel like we've been playing a lot of these games that are like the gameplay and the kind of thematic through line of the game, or are very much in kind of kind of conversation. Which is strange. I feel like a lot of the games that I play, maybe outside of this, are, are not doing that. And so it's interesting to be playing games like this, where I'm like, oh, like the, the mechanics of it. And kind of the themes of the story it's telling are super tight. Like someone thought about this pretty deeply.
  
  Phil 1:30:51
  Yeah, for sure. Um, and I mean, it was, it's good to see Dylan say that a wanderer song is one of his favorite games, because that's something that I haven't played, but when I was, you know, researching, Greg, I definitely saw that come up a lot. So now I feel like I've got to check it out. I
  
  Ben 1:31:06
  guess we got to boot it up.
  
  Phil 1:31:09
  Well, where can we find? Greg, we can find Greg at the ban of on Twitter. And you can find Alexis at muscle weighing on Twitter and for chicory. I believe that it's on PlayStation five, PlayStation four and PC. And I think it's going to be coming to other platforms eventually. But don't quote me on that.
  
  Ben 1:31:34
  You can find us at origin story underscore, you can find me at sad underscore radio underscore lad. You can also find our website origin story dot show, Phillip, where can they find you?
  
  Phil 1:31:46
  You can find me at 3d Cisco on Twitter. And yeah, we wanted to take a moment and thank Ryan Hopper for providing the awesome intro and outro music you hear every episode, as well as melody Hirsch, who did the website and cover art for us. If you have any questions, concerns, ideas, if you want to send us an email, just like Dylan did, we would really love to hear them. We'd really love to read them on the show. And you can do that at our email, which is the origin story. pod@gmail.com
  
  Ben 1:32:20
  the highest bar the bar is high. You got to ask a really thoughtful, insightful question like Dylan bring it
  
  Phil 1:32:26
  and yeah, you can catch us again here next time. Thursdays 5am. Pacific Time, and 8am Eastern Time. Peace