Natalie Watson (Immortality) on the State of Games Criticism and Transitioning into Games Development
Episode Description
Natalie Watson is a producer at Half Mermaid Productions where she worked on Immortality. Previously she was a games critic for Vice’s games outlet Waypoint.
She also co-owns the successful Star Wars podcast "A More Civilized Age” alongside former editor-in-chief Austin Walker, Rob Zacnay, and Ali Acampora.
We talked to Natalie about her work on Immortality, the games journalist to game dev pipeline, and the absolute state of games criticism in 2023.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can follow Natalie Watson here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:17
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell and I am with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And Ben, today we have a special episode, I think for you and I specifically,
Ben 0:36
who did we get to talk to you this week, we got to talk to Natalie Watson, someone that I think that hits right in the middle of all of our interests. She is someone who has been a games journalist, working at waypoint and then transitioned into game development, something that tracks pretty quickly with, you know, one to one with your trajectory. And I think also I made her talk, I kind of took us to a dark place and was like, let's talk about games journalism industry, because that's something that is very near and dear to my heart, which is like, let's talk about the sustainability of like games journalism. So it was a good conversation that I think gets to the heart of a lot of the things that you and I care very deeply about.
Phil 1:23
Yeah, you know, we talked about immortality, which is obviously the game that we talked to Sam Barlow about sometime last year, which is like this interactive movie archival game and the same kind of ilk as his other two games, her story and telling lies. So that was really interesting to hear Natalie's perspective, especially because that's like, that's her first foray into game development. So we get into all that. And then yeah, we really kind of dive deep into kind of the state of games journalism today. Why places like waypoint are kind of outliers in the space. Yeah. And it's just a really fun conversation. So how about we save our full discourse for after the episode and this has jumped right in there?
Natalie Watson is a producer at half mermaid productions, where she worked on immortality, and previously she was a games critic for Vice games outlet waypoint. She also co owns the successful Star Wars podcast, a more civilized age alongside former editor in chief of waypoint Austin Walker, Rob Zachodni. And Alia. Campora. Natalie, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. Yeah, how you doing? And you know, obviously, we talked to Sam earlier, I guess last year now about immortality. And, you know, since then, the games kind of had so much praise. And, you know, I know this is this was your first kind of foray into games development side of things. So just like how you doing how's life
Natalie Watson 3:25
things are good. Yeah, it's been it's been a wild ride.
The tail end of immortality is is tailing it's, it's we're starting to see you know, set it off onto its own journey, its own path. But for now, still still a lot to do award season really drags like everything out. Like I was, like, Oh, I'll be able to, you know, take a step away. And, you know, I don't know, take some time off or something. But those awards shows they just, it's a lot to do got a lot to prepare for all of that. They don't tell you that before you apply to all of them, but there's a lot to do so.
Yeah, but I'm, I'm, I'm great. I'm like I could not be happier with how everything turned. Turned out. I mean, I this has been like the most surreal experience ever going through spending three years making a thing that you very much cannot talk about and very much cannot show anyone and very much cannot spoil for anyone.
It was like one of the hardest things ever just like loving what I was doing every day and not getting to share it with anyone other than my coworkers who are amazing. And then not knowing what people were gonna think of it. You know, we're making this like super weird niche art. Each thing and inside have already a very niche space that is the video games industry. Well, I guess it's not really that niche. I always describe it that way. But it's not it's it's a main thing. It's a mainstream thing games are mainstream. But I guess it depends who you ask. But yeah, I just had no idea what people would think of it. And then it ended up being that people really liked it, which is absolutely. Just bonkers to me. I can't not believe that people i and i really like it too. But I didn't know that other people were also going to really like it. And then for Yeah, that to go beyond to, you know, being at, you know, in awards shows with, like, some of the biggest games biggest budgets, biggest maps, you know, in in the industry is just like, totally, totally wild. It's been nuts. So, but I'm good. How are you guys?
Ben 6:02
Good. Doing good. I kinda wanted to get you to talk about like, what your your work on immortality was, I mean, I think just to explain to people, it feels like that is a game that is, in some ways, like a lot of a movie, like it is a movie. And so I'm wondering if we're working on that felt more like working on a movie sets than working on a game? And like, just talk to me about like, what what was your role in that project?
Natalie Watson 6:31
Yeah, I think it's a totally valid question. Because I think even within the games industry producers, do, there's so many different kinds of producers out there, which is something that I've come to learn over the past, you know, three, almost three and a half years that I've been on the Game Dev side of things. And then yeah, to do this kind of weird hybrid thing was even more, you know, unique in terms of what my work entailed. So it was kind of split down the middle. I mean, I, the first year, I started as the associate producer, and my time was very much dedicated to doing a ton of research and narrative development with Sam, while we were working on the scripts, working on, you know, the story, and then going into thinking about like costumes, and looks and hair, and makeup, and casting and all those kinds of things. So I got to have a really close collaboration with Sam, on all the different aspects of the narrative process for the first year or so. And then, you know, it's funny, because I started at half mermaid, a month before the pandemic started. So I got like, two weeks, two or three weeks in office before, like, New York shut down, I was still living in New York at the time, in New York, shut down. And then so basically, immortality has been like a completely remote project. But I ended up coming back to Los Angeles. And we ended up deciding to do the film shoot here. So I got to I was I did a couple different things on the film, shoot, my main role was, you know, supporting Sam and making sure that if, you know, as the director, writer, there's a lot of questions being asked of him at any given time. So I was kind of like a second, Sam's brain on set and able to keep track of where in the story we were, and be able to answer people's questions like, wait, what layer of what reality are we in right now. So that was, that was one part of things and then I also was the script supervisor on set, which kind of goes hand in hand with that as well in terms of making sure continuity is being followed making sure that like, actors are like getting their lines right or if they need help, I like will run in the middle of a, you know, after take and kind of like run some lines with them. Or making sure that like prop consistency, like nothing's been moved or touched or anything like that. That was a lot of fun. It's very stressful. Because we shot three movies and it was a lot of stuff to keep track of. But yeah, the that film portion was very much run like a traditional film set. Like we had a full fledged crew who all came from film and TV who were absolutely amazing and We just basically shot three back to back indie movies over the course of the summer 2021. And then we went into post production. And throughout midway through the film shoot, I became the producer at half mermaid. So then it was like, jumping into the game dev side of things, and being able to like figure out our platform plans and figure out like what studios we were going to collaborate with, to make that happen, and doing kind of more traditional game dev producing work alongside like, ramping up our PR and marketing and in making sure that we had, you know, just that, that immortality was getting its sort of name out there, which we were super lucky to be asked to be a part of a couple of different, like, games directs, I think, like the future game show, and there was like a PC gamer show that we got to do. So a lot of different stuff. I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of hard to describe what I did, concisely because I think, being an indie team. And then being, you know, the solo producer on a project, it was kind of just like a little bit of everything, and sometimes a lot of it of everything, but it's, it was I think that's it was ended up being very fulfilling for me, like I found my it just, I think like my work ethic, and like the way that I approach things, lends itself to having a lot of different hats on and getting to have a hand in a lot of different things. So as much as there was to do it felt like every single day, I was learning something new, which is like the coolest thing to get in a job, I think is just get to learn something every single day. So that's kind of like the overall hope that was, I hope that was useful.
Ben 12:19
Yeah, continuity alone, I feel like we'd be I would just be in a panic every day, especially with that project. Because it's like, I feel like in a in a normal movie, when things are in the wrong place. A couple people will notice. But with a game like this, where people are poring over clips, I have to imagine that you have to be like, No, like it has to be in the right spot.
Natalie Watson 12:39
Yeah, that was definitely something that, you know, there were a lot of ways in which this was super different from a traditional film set in the Senate and exactly what you're talking about, is like we couldn't afford to cut around things. Everything was a one was one shot, it was, you know, essentially one take that we were using and then putting into the game, there was no editing, there was no cutting, like it was one thing, so it had to be perfect every time. Although something went like a little wrong, we could be like, Oh, the making of the movie, you know, things could be magic. A little round, the boom comes down into shot. Yeah, it's movie magic. Um, so that was a, you know, that that was that was something that we had to kind of help the film crew wrap their heads around in terms of everything you see her will be seen. And also, this isn't going to be watched in a movie theater where it just, you know, a little error might just like Grey's, like, you know, you glance by it's gone. People are going to be pausing and rewinding and pausing and going frame by frame and analyzing and that's what we want to encourage them to do. So there can't be like, we're also not only doing that we're also doing three period movies. So we can't, you know, we have to make sure there's no laptops on you know, whatever, just anything that would break that type of immersion, make sure that that's nowhere to be found, which I think we're pretty we had some close calls I will say I think there there's not a Starbucks cup insight anywhere in. In our process though. I'm proud of that.
Phil 14:31
You know, like with half mermaid and you know, and Sam Barlow, were you like a fan of like her story and telling lies before like, how did you kind of I'm sure we'll get further into this, but like, how did you transition from working at waypoint to then going to bring in a Sam?
Natalie Watson 14:50
Yeah, it was kind of a funny story. I mean, I the first time I played one of Sam's games was for a narrative design. I in class in college, I played her story. So that was like my first experience with with his games. And I loved her story. I thought it was fantastic. And just I had never encountered anything like it. And then while I was at waypoint telling lies came out, and I think Patrick, cover telling lies, and I remember we were both at EA three together, and we both went to like the Annapurna booth, and I was checking out with Tommen. And he was checking out telling lies, and I was like, That looks cool. And then it came out and I played it, and it was like, super fucking cool, but like, not enough people were talking about it. And then I ended up leaving waypoint to pursue, there's like this like, like, what did Natalie do for seven months, part of my career, where I was, I took like a brief sort of detour into the eSports space. And I was working on like a new gaming venture for a startup that didn't end up panning out. But I still think it was a really great idea. And maybe one day, I'll get to talk about it more openly. And then that kind of started to, you know, sunset, and I was just like, hey, I'm looking for my next thing. I sort of tweeted it out. And then either Sam saw it, or someone sent it to Sam, and he happened to be hiring right at like, Sam worked on telling drought. Before we were half mermaid it was, the studio is called drowning and mermaid. And Sam was the sole employee of drowning and mermaid while he made telling lies. And so he was like, I want to build out a studio for this next thing I'm going to work on, I'm looking for, you know, a couple of producers and then bring on some like programming talent. So he reached out to me, and we got lunch in Brooklyn at a really yummy Italian restaurant. And we just chatted for like three hours about movies and games. And I think he had been familiar with some of my work at waypoint. So he had like, some sense of, you know, how, what I thought about things, but we just got along really well, I think creatively, and he offered me a job. And I was like, Yeah, let's do it. I didn't expect to like make the trends. Everyone talks about the sort of transition that one may make from games journalism to Game Dev or the other way around. It's like always hanging in the background of those two, you know, sides of the industry. I just didn't expect mine to come so soon. I always thought that I'd stay in journalism for a really long time. And then one day, you know, maybe end up on the other side of things. But then it just kind of happened. And here I am.
Ben 18:14
I'm so glad you teed that up, because we have like eight questions on this specifically, which is i What was different for you? Or maybe what changed for you when you made that transition? And did it kind of shape the way that you thought about the industry or change some of the ways that you were thinking about? Yeah, the world of totally,
Natalie Watson 18:32
I mean, it changed like everything, it kind of shocks me how much it changed how I thought about the industry and how I thought about players and how I thought about like, what it means to make a game. It challenged all of my preconceptions of that. I mean, I think you wouldn't. There's a certain aspect, there's, I think we have like a problem in this industry. I mean, there's lots of problems. But I think there's an issue with how obscure and like, just how obscured the game development process is. I think what Tim Schafer just did with the Psychonauts two documentary is like, incredibly beneficial to just games, the games industry at large. I hope that players watch it. I hope I think a lot of critics are are watching it or have watched it already by now. I think that like, game, making games is so hard. It is like a miracle that games get made at all. And I can see, you know, it made me like deeply reconsider a lot of those like, ah, it was just whatever it wasn't for me. I was like, wow, like people poured their heart and souls into this thing and like It sucks that there is like this numerical grading system that this industry is obsessed with, on both sides. I mean, I think there are a lot of credits who are rightfully so moving away from it. But at the same time, on the other side of things, it's like when you when you see your Metacritic score going down, down, down, it sucks it like it hurts your feelings. It's hard not to take things personally. So that was like a big thing. I realized I was just like, wow, it is really, really hard to make video games. And I wish more people understood that. I'll pause.
Ben 20:44
Yeah, no, I'd Phil and I talked about this all the time, where it's like we will we'll play a game before we go into an interview with a dev, and we'll be like, you know, mechanics aren't really their stories kind of interesting, okay. And then it's like, we'll have the conversation and immediately after be like, oh, like, that was pretty cool. And they put a lot of work into that. And I think like, just having access to that shapes a lot of the way that you're like, oh, no, like, a lot went into this. And I think it's easy to forget that when you're just like, you know, playing through Italy,
Natalie Watson 21:16
I mean, it like, makes me and it's less like, I think, for the most part, there's not it's less like, criticism that I I've found myself struggling with, because I think immortality is not a game for everyone. That's, I knew that from the get go. And, you know, I was very much anticipating, like, I was hoping for an eight, like, I was like, I hope we get out. Like, I hope we said this thing out there. And, you know, like, it resonates with some people to the point that like, you know, we get some like strong eights out there. That's what I that's what I was like, aspiring to, and then for the very first, because of how edge Print Works, like they, you know, it came out two weeks before any of the other before the rest of the embargoes were lifted. And we got like this, you know, history making 10 that it just like it, it like, totally threw me off. And I was like, oh my god, maybe this is like, maybe people aren't going to resonate this with this. And maybe people aren't going to see it for the amount of work that we put into it. Because Holy shit did we like put our like heart and souls into making a mortality. It was like just trying to make movies in general during COVID was hard. And then we made three of them, like super efficiently. And our lead actor, actor, mono gauge who's a dear friend of mine now, like this was her first role out of Juilliard, and she's playing like 14 billion different people, you know, like, it's just like, it was just, we were so so so ambitious with what we're doing. So the fact that it was starting to resonate with people was like, just the most incredible surprise that we could have gotten. But yeah, I would say that like, that's one one aspect of things that really changed when I landed on the other side, which is like, thinking back to the way I used to so casually talk about games. And not just consider what it takes to put these things out there and make them happen. And then I think like it's the the harder part is like the average gamer I think, because that's like more dismissive it's hard to like get the the sleep Twitch emo whenever your games trailer comes up in the award show, you know, like it just sucks. Or, you know, just people be like, This isn't a game this isn't. You know, this is a movie why is that being considered for best game or whatever? It just feels like you know, we're trying give it a try. If you give it a try and hate it, then I can't like I can't believe I can't, you know, that's totally fine with me. At least you gave it a try. But don't knock it till you try it. I think that's a little harder to just there's just no level with to reason with on that front. It's like it's not gonna be for everyone. But like, don't like down it just because it's not for you. When you've never really given it a try. It's just like, why put the unnecessary negativity out there. You know, I don't know
Phil 24:51
what to say it's heartening to hear your kind of journey of like meeting Sam and then kind of having this I'm kind of unconventional, like you tweeted out like I'm looking for work ended up meeting, a Sam and it kind of all worked out. Because like, that basically just happened to me like two months ago, where I was working in like a tech startup for the last two years and doing like origin story has been for, like since 2021. And doing freelance games criticism for fun, really. And we had interviewed Chandana, Ken yake, who's the founder of outer loop. And when I got laid off in December, and I like tweeted out, like, Hey, I'm looking for, like, work on I want to do something more creative, because I've been, my background is in creative writing, but I was working in marketing. And you, like, just responded to a tweet. And I was like, Hey, you should come work here. And like, similar. Similar trajectory. Yeah, I'd started in like, January. That's amazing. Yeah, sick. So I mean, I think everything you were saying right now, it's, I can feel that change happening in me to just like, seeing how games are made, and seeing how difficult everything is to make it definitely has has changed kind of, or maybe soften some of like, the maybe yeah, hardness that I had when I was more on, like the criticism, side of things. Yeah.
Natalie Watson 26:24
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, it's, it's not to say that I don't appreciate criticism, because there were definitely some people that came out and wrote really good, or really well thought out reviews of immortality, where there were things that they didn't, you know, didn't vibe with, or just had, like, I think, valid critique against the game, but like, the thing for me was that it was the thing that made the difference is is, is if I felt like it was actually like, how do I describe this, it was actually contending with the game itself. in a deep way, instead of kind of writing it off, if like, there were certain criticisms, criticisms that I read that that I read, that I could tell were, like, really engaged with the source with the material itself really engaged with, you know, what we were trying to do, and like maybe talking about where they felt we missed the mark or whatever. But that I appreciate, and I think there's something to be to learn from, and it's valuable as a creator to, like, get that type of feedback. But as I see the feedback, like, wow, these performances suck, I'm like, no, they don't like you, I just like fundamentally disagree with you. Or, you know, so just like making a, you know, assumption about something about the production that is just like completely off base or wrong, it's like, okay, then I can't really, we're not on this meeting in the same sort of playing field here, where I feel like, we're just on the same plane of understanding about this game, like, I'm happy to, you know, to get feedback, but I just want it to be engaged with, like, what we're trying to do. Which is hard, I think as a creative, that's all you can ask for really, is that people are going to, like, engage with the, you know, integrity of your game and see it for, you know, the, as a piece of art as something creative that we're trying to put out there to hopefully, you know, communicate something about the way that we feel about the world or tell a story that we think is important, or something like that. That's all I think any artist or creative can really ask for no matter where you come from in the development process, or wherever. And I think the same goes with like, as a critic, like when I was a critic, it was so stressful putting out an article or a podcast or any like I it was, it was hard and but like, you kind of become a little bit more desensitized to it because of the frequency of putting things out there. And like, I can't linger on the blog post that I've made about like the, you know, random each game that I played that like didn't get any clicks, like I can't think about I can't let that, you know, prevent me from doing my work today. Like it's a new day, you have to keep going. Whereas when you work on games for years, or I think even like longer form stories that like on the critic side of things when you're working on things for months or long periods of time. It's harder to let go of some of that, you know, negative feedback, or
Ben 29:57
Yeah, the other thing that I kind of want to just gets you to talk about briefly is the state of games criticism and, you know, you're talking about everybody making this leap when they can. And I, you know, I'm in public radio, but I think that lingers in the background to where it's like, hey, this job is probably not going to be here in a couple years, and everybody had a certain you know, and you start hitting like mid 30s or 40s and people go to other jobs so that they can make more money. And you know, obviously we're at this moment where watcher saw all these cuts Gamespot is seeing all these cuts IGN fan by one of the things we're thinking about is like sustainability and like what to you needs to happen in the industry to make it more sustainable? Not to ask you to solve games journalism, but But please, please solve games journalism.
Natalie Watson 30:55
I mean, this is like, it is like the most tragic thing to be like watching happen to our industry right now. It is it, it's hard not to feel completely powerless to, you know, giant billionaire investors who decide they want to run a media company and then decide that, you know, that I mean, when I worked at vice, I saw three mass layoffs, I was almost one of them. And like Austin went about for me in a way that saved my job. And I was never a full time. I don't think I was a full time employee until like, my last few months advice, I was always uppermill answer. Because of just media being shitty. They like that was the sort of that was the run, they're like, you had to be a perma Lancer for several years, until you basically got another offer to leave. And then they'd be like, Okay, we'll make you a job offer so that you stay, which is pretty much what happened to me, but I ended up leaving anyway. Um, but it is. I like sat next to like this award winning journalist for Motherboard. And she was like, my idol, I was like, I if I could write half as good as you, I would just, I could like die happy. I just, I just was such an admirer of her work. And I remember one of the days of the layoffs, she got laid off. And I was like, nothing makes sense. Like, nothing makes sense. If like, I'm watching some of the greatest talent of this industry and, you know, other, you know, verticals, advice and be let go for virtually no reason. So, it's, it's a difficult, terrible thing. I mean, I think a lot of people solutions are, you know, try to get DTC, like, go direct to consumer try and, you know, work off subscribers and, you know, develop a more direct, loyal audience that will pay to keep the lights on, essentially. And I think some places are finding success with that. I don't think everyone can, like, I don't think you can do what's the what's the forgetting the name of the, like, other subscription that came out of? Was it GMG? Whatever, I'm escaping me right now. But, you know, I think there's definitely like, that's a really attractive idea that, like, you'll just get paid directly by your audience for what you like, want to make and they'll stand by you because they like your voice. I mean, that's the type of consumer I was in general. And I think there's, you know, some part of the games journalism audience that is that type of consumer that follows specific voices or, you know, follows people specific works, because they're a fan of the way that they specifically think about things. But that's also not what the larger you know, Game News general audience is doing like they are just looking at whatever headline is, like popping into their Twitter feed or whatever feed so it's hard to say I mean, it's, it's immensely depressing, and I am, like, I'm at a loss for trying to understand how I don't know how I mean, how we keep games criticism afloat because so many incredible critics have now left the space to make the jump to something more stable. And with like, understandably because, like the media industry is is either if they're not kicking you out, like, then then you're, you're now finding your own way. So it's, it's really tough. I mean, I feel for anyone out there who's trying to make a start in this space and or, you know still fighting the good fight it's it's immensely valuable work. I mean, it's what's the point of making games if if nobody's going to write about them and think about them, that's why I got into this in the first place because I just wanted to think about and write about games for a living. That's all I really wanted to do. And then I, you know, ended up where I'm at now, but like, it's, it's tough. I don't know. Sorry, consultant.
Phil 36:05
I mean, I, it's, I have this question in my head where I'm like, I feel like I am a big part of the audience. I'm about to ask you about it. But like, I remember, you know, when I was in undergrad back in like the early 2010s. You know, I used to just be like those one of those headline clickers like go to the IGN go to Kotaku Go to polygon, wherever. And then I just have like, this distinct memory of like, finding waypoint. And then basically, I just went to waypoint for everything. And then, you know, through Twitter, maybe I saw other other like sites. And, you know, obviously, I can't speak to like the financial success of waypoint but it seems like waypoints doing well, compared to a lot of other outlets. And I'm curious, like, you know, why do you think maybe waypoint is waypoint is like a unicorn in that scenario, or,
Natalie Watson 37:06
I mean, it's funny that you describe that sort of path of finding other stuff because I had the exact same path like when I, I was told, like, go follow these vertical like, you know, these verticals, the IGN polygon, Kotaku, everyone. And one of them was motherboard, actually. And then motherboard, like through motherboard, I found way point. And it totally changed the way that I consumed games, journalism and games media, because I was like, Whoa, people are talking about games in a way that like is like, what I'm trying to write at school or like, is like, what I'm trying, you know, trying to forge like this, like game studies, path for myself, like there are people doing that out there in the world that aren't just academics. That's amazing. And then yeah, I had a similar thing of just seeing, you know, who they engaged with and who they respected. And then that opened up my world to being able to discover new people, new voices, you know, I think waypoint has the has the luck of being given the ability to do what they want to do right now in a space that like, that's not being offered. I think that, you know, I can't really speak to specifics, but I think that they're able to be proof that you can run, you know, an outlet like this and be supported by your audience and your audience will show up for you. And we'll just, they're proof of concept essentially, that like DTC can work. And they're being given the ability to, like, continue doing their thing, continue making their thing and that's like, it's like, it's kind of as simple as that, just that they're being given the opportunity to like to do this thing. And Patrick, Rob Kado read our, you know, powerhouses they're like some of the best critics in the space and as long as they can keep, you know, my my hope for them is that they can, you know, be able to foster more voices more new talent, you know, Ren is a relatively new talent in the industry. I mean, she's come up in like the past three or so years, I think. And she's like one of the sharpest critics out there. It's like, that's an amazing like, that's, that's all I could hope for, from any outlet out there. that not only are we keeping the lights on, but that new talent is being able to be fostered and grown and like, you know, spotlighted because I think that's, you know, the Freelancer space is really tough out there too. Like it's hard for freelance critics to get spots writing places because there's like a not a lot of places have a have the ability to, you know, commission articles and stuff right now. So it's just, it's a really tenuous time and I very much respect and admire the EIC is out there still, and journalists, journalists, you know, everywhere that are still doing this thing still fighting this good fight, because without them, we would just have chat GPI What is it chat? Yeah, chat, GPI articles about video games, whatever. Which like places are already doing they're already like, using that shit to fucking write news blogs. It's like what the hell is wrong with your tech brains that like you think this is a good idea? This is a terrible idea. Stop replacing human people's work with like, just bad robots. It's not good. It's not good work. Doesn't make sense half the time. But anyway, that's my anti anti chat GPT feel
Ben 41:32
but it's extremely here for
Natalie Watson 41:37
Yeah, I don't know. It's it's tough. I it's it's hard to hard to keep games criticism afloat in a media industry that is just so ridiculously profit driven in just like obscene ways that you know, I don't know. It. It's, it's not sustainable. We live. I mean, we're, we're watching the collapse happen, as in the past year have have so many different outlets, shuttering are so many massive layoffs, it feels like every couple of months, like, half my timeline is, you know, either boosting someone or looking for work themselves, because it's just like, it's it's Dire Straits out there. So
Ben 42:27
yeah, and it feels like it's cycles, we go through these cycles of just like, everybody gets laid off. You know, the other question and, you know, again, I'm sorry, I'm asking you these, like, very kind of, like, solve this problem. But
Natalie Watson 42:42
well, that's my job as a producer, it's basically to just solve solve problems. So
Ben 42:50
it's like, how some of that, you know, whether it's like building an audience that wants that level of engagement, and thinking about, you know, games deeply, and trying to engage with, you know, this stuff that you're talking about, we're like, oh, this review of immortality is good, even if it's like, it's not 100% Pro, because it takes it on its own terms. Because I also feel like I see so much kind of antagonism towards critique, especially among gamers. And I'm wondering, like, what it what it takes to foster more of that, like, I'm genuinely interested to read this thing that I don't necessarily agree with. Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Watson 43:28
Yeah, that's a tough one. Because I think it's like a product of how terrible Twitter is for discourse. Because like, you can't like a thing or not like a thing. And say that out loud without people jumping down your throat either way. And even if you say, I mean, coming from as a person who does a Star Wars podcast, podcast, where mostly we complain about Star Wars. Like, there's a lot of people out there who would be like, Why are you do you hate Star Wars? And I'm like, No, I love Star Wars. I love Star Wars so much that all like I've spent two years complaining about it, because I think it's so it could be so good. And I want it to be better. I mean, that's like, that's, that's the fundamental misunderstanding is that some people think that you have to dislike a thing to have problems with it. Whereas you can absolutely like a thing. And have, you know, thoughts and feelings intentions like that's what makes that's what makes it good. That's what makes it satisfying. That's what makes it fulfilling. It's not just you know, yummy, delicious, easy to eat. Cake. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. That's not interesting. That's not like why we get in to business, I think it's just not. Not why any critic wants to write about video games is just to like, talk about how fun jumping is, or how good the guns feel, or whatever. Like that stuff is cool, too. And it's like, it's awesome when you find that it's awesome when a mechanic like really blossoms for you in some, you know, specific way or whatever. But that's not it's not the end all be all. Is it fun? It's not the end all be all. And like, I don't know, there are a lot of movies out there that I think are incredible films that I did not enjoy watching. Like, the Irishman was, like, I I genuinely liked that film. It was not an enjoyable watch. But I like thinking it did a lot of really interesting weird things. And like, I'm glad that Martin Scorsese got to make like a three hour movie like, go, good for you. I guess, like, shout out to Marty like, I mean, live your life live your truth. So, yeah, it's, it's tough because I think people want to be and I, I understand this impulse, people want to be champions of the things that they like, and they feel like they have to defend it. Because also in an industry that's like, tenuous and volatile, and like studios are getting shuttered. People are getting, you know, whole QA teams are getting laid off. I think people are also protective, because they are afraid of this thing. Somebody noticing that it's like, not that good. And then like that thing disappearing from the world or not getting another chance. Like that's the hardest thing is like often I play a game and I'm like, Oh, I can't wait for the next one. Because I think there's so many interesting ideas here. And like, I think the next one is really going to be where they get to, like, learn those lessons and capitalize it, capitalize on that. And that's like, that's the scary thing is like, can it can a game do well be well do well enough and be interesting enough to land the next thing, so that you get to keep making games. And like, I understand the impulse have to be protective, but I don't know plenty of gamers are antagonistic against the games that they play every single day, like the amount of times Apex players are complaining about, you know, the just saying respond or lazy devs I'm like, come on, like this, this game is so hard to make, like this game is so hard to run. It's just It's nuts. But, you know, it goes to show what, how much of a disconnect there really is between some of the, you know, people who have 1000s and 1000s of hours in a particular game and don't understand what it takes to make that happen to like, facilitate that experience. It's like it's disheartening, but I think there are people who are doing good work, like the no clip team, like you know, some of these studios really seeing you know, their own proper documentaries, but it's like, it's hard. It's hard to keep that type of documentation from our perspective just even you know, we've been approached to do some like making of VHS and there's been we did like an edge piece in the most recent edge article of like a deep dive on the making of it mortality and stuff. And like it's a whole job just to like document everything and like archive it all in like make sure that you have something to show when people are like hey, do you have any BTS stuff to like, share with us it's like I have like set photos I took like of like props and shit to make sure that like we weren't you know, it's like it's everything takes so much work. It's like really astounding what the Double Fine crew were able to do with their video series I just don't even know how like it's so cool. I would like I hope that I could have like a quarter of that type of production value into some like BTS stuff for a game I work on one day but it's wild
yeah
Phil 49:27
yeah, I'm curious like it's kind of ironic to say this or like fine to say but I'm like 20 episodes into that Double Fine documentary series amazing like you're saying and you know, I'm sure they get into it but I'm curious for you since immortality, you know, wrapped up recently something that isn't talked a lot about is just like the after the game is out, like what's the life? What's life like? Like, like, what's the kind of like a come down or like how are you?
Natalie Watson 49:59
I guess how There's like a hard come down. There's a hard come down. I mean, I was warned about this after the film shoot by all the film people I like ended up becoming close with a lot of people from the film crew just because we're all here in LA. And it just, we're able to stay friends and stay in touch. And like everyone warned me they were like, after, because I was I had like, the sort of rose colored glasses on I was like, This is amazing. We're making magic every day. This is like the greatest thing on the planet. This is like movie magic. Hell yeah. Let's get it. And, you know, a lot of a lot of these people this was like, you know, another job or like, you know, they're coming from having just done three weeks on another shoot or another set, like it's, and they're lining up their next thing, and they were just like, just wait until it's over, you're gonna feel super sad, you're gonna be super depressed. And I was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna be like, so busy with everything else that it will be okay. And for like, the most part that was true, I think there was this big Calm down, because you're just your, your whole lifestyle changes, like in a day. And like, for two and a half months, we were on set every day, like solving problems, putting out fires, like up against the clock, trying to make something good, trying to make magic happen. And like, you're just totally in it. And there was a, like, there's a few, there's probably like, the month after that I was way more down, but I had enough to distract myself with, with post production. Getting into, you know, integrating all the footage into the lake, there's so much to do that I was able to kind of like, move through that and still have a lot on my plate to move on with. But after that, after mortality came out, it was it, it was really tough. Because there's nothing to like tinker with anymore, there's nothing to like, obsess over, there's nothing to fill your time with. It's out there. And people are playing it and you have, there's like, it's like an there's like this absence of control that comes out of nowhere out of all of a sudden, and it's such a disorienting feeling. I think now that I've experienced it, it'll be hopefully less jarring the next time it happens. You know, the next time we ship a game or end of a project or something, but it's hard because there's such a high, it's such an emotional high. When you release the thing, it's like you're, you know, looking at all the articles coming in, you're like reading what everyone has to say. And then like, slowly, like the chatter starts to slow down and slowly. You know, it's, there's not much to do anymore. And that's a really tough thing to grapple with. And it like, it's hard because it can often line up with like, a type of burnout where like, you know, you just went however many years, however many months hard on a project and like now, you're like coping with that amount of work and that amount of energy and you're trying to recuperate, and to also, you know, emotionally recuperate from putting out a thing, it's, it's a hard it's a tough thing that I think not enough people talk about at the end of a project because, you know, I think for live Service Games, there's like, there is no end like you like ship like a big milestone or whatever. And you might get like a couple of weeks off, and then you're like, on to the next thing at least that's my understanding. I haven't worked on life service game, so I wouldn't know. But like, that's my sort of understanding of how that might be. But for like, especially us we like, you know, we're lucky enough to be thinking about the next thing and and, but we're not in any sort of rush. So yeah, it's like my days are weirdly freer. But I'm also weirdly it's way harder to send even just one email where I was like sending, you know, up to like 100 emails a day leading up to launch trying to get all the press keys, you know, sorted trying to get everyone everyone's emails answered and all that kind of stuff it like just the shift in pace so drastically is like it's a really disorienting experience to go through and I feel like now I'm It's hard because then like with each, I mean, we're lucky enough to be going through the sort of award ceremony, award show circuit, but with each thing, it's like all of this emotion, like, prep, getting all the materials ready getting everything sorted, like, you know, getting travel or figured out whatever it might be. And then to have like this big high again of like, oh, will it happen, will it not? And then it's like a lull until, like, the next thing that like, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely a roller coaster of emotion. And I think now that we're sort of, on the tail, you know, at the end of, of mortalities, like, post reel, post release thing. It's odd. It's really, it's also hard to say goodbye to it. It's hard to like, I'm obsessed with this thing. I've been obsessed with immortality for like almost three and a half years. Like, it's hard to imagine it not being a part of my life every single day. It's the weirdest thing to think about that, like I will, you know, one day not be talking about or thinking about mortality, like that's just like a unfathomable thing to me, because it's been my whole life for like, almost three and a half years. So that's also super odd, odd thing.
Ben 56:31
I do have you started to, like, have conversations about what the next thing is? Does that happen? Somewhere in this process? Yeah,
Natalie Watson 56:38
I mean, Sam is Sam is always thinking about like, Sam has like a bajillion ideas for games, like he is a fountain of creativity. And so even while, you know, we're working on immortality, we always were like, kick around, like, this would be really cool if we got to do it. And like another thing or like this, we had, like, sometimes we'd have an idea for something. I was like, Oh, it doesn't really fit here for immortality, but like maybe like, the next game or like the next thing. So So yeah, I think like, we're starting to do my favorite part, which is like starting to do research, Sam, like, the first week I started he, maybe not the first week, but within the first like month or so I started, he started compiling this, like research list reference list for all these movies, and books and music and all these kinds of things for immortality. And that was like, one of the best things we got to do is just like, go read a bunch of stuff, go Listen, go watch, go play a bunch of different games. Like, just, it's as a, as a creative. It's really hard to do that type of work. Personally, I think. I haven't played many video games in the past three and a half years, like I I'm still at Godrich and Elgin ring, like I still, I'm so far behind, like, I have so much catching up to do. It's, it's sad, it makes me sad, because I used to play so many video games for work. And now it's like, so hard just to do just to do one. But it's the best thing to have like an excuse and a motivation to like, just go play a bunch of stuff, go watch a bunch of stuff. So we're kind of just now getting started into that process, which is really exciting.
Ben 58:46
Yeah, no, I was gonna say because you're talking about, you know, behind the scenes stuff. And I was noodling through some of the blogs. But yeah, favorite things was when you would have conversations about, oh, hey, here's this piece of art. Here's how I'm thinking about how we can apply it to the stuff that we're working on, which is just like, I don't know, how, how, how rare or how normal that is. But that was a very cool approach. Yeah,
Natalie Watson 59:05
that's cool. I'm glad that like, you read those because I yeah, that those are really, that was a fun thing we got to do in the beginning of immortality, and my Co Co producer, Jeff and I were doing like these audio blogs at one point where we're like, just chatting about production and what we're playing and stuff and that was all it's just hard to maintain. Honestly, it's hard to like find the time of day when it's just me Sam and Connor on the team and like, you want to be able to keep making that kind of stuff and keep people interested get people's Wish List immortality get people to sign up for the newsletter, you know, anything like that. But immortality was especially difficult in that sense because we saw So we could not talk about anything, we so could not share, like a single thing about that game. Because it would spoil everything like, because of how many layers of mystery we wanted to operate behind, we couldn't share set foot, you know, we were operating in this, like, urban myth of at all that, like, we have this treasure trove of lost footage and like, so we can't exactly post much ahead of that. As long as we want to keep the that illusion and not to mention, like some of the, you know, deeper spoilers, like it was so hard not to be able to, like share in progress photos, or like other studios get to share like character art, or like, you know, different, there's like a plethora of material that you can use to keep people interested, keep people engaged. And we just like, did not have that opportunity. And that was really difficult because it was difficult to gauge. Like, if people were like still thinking about this and still anticipating it and still excited for immortality, because our only opportunity to kind of gauge that was when we would have these, you know, these appearances at some of the different games direct shows throughout like II three and prior to that. And then like, you have the odd, you know, random interview or around Tribeca, we got to, you know, gauge a little bit of how people were thinking about it. So that was a tough, tough thing as well is just not not being able to share anything. And, um, but still telling people like wishlist, like please like
Ben 1:01:45
it. I promise. Rules. That's good. Can't tell anything about it.
Phil 1:01:51
Yeah, I'd forgotten that. That yeah, y'all are really, really secretive now that I'm kind of reflecting on it. So that is pretty crazy.
Natalie Watson 1:02:03
Yeah, it was. It was wild. And it was something we went back and forth on a lot. In just like thinking about our trailers and thinking about you know, our, even our tweets and stuff like that it was really and that's why I think we leaned on sharing so much like reference material in the beginning and like talking about art and talking about the movies, we were watching and making that like letterboxed account of like all the mortality references and stuff, because that was like, something we could we could share, and could talk towards, whereas everything else we really couldn't say about on our own. Well, like, because we did not want like, you know, we didn't want to we wanted to keep everything a surprise, which I think ended up being worth it ended up working out. But it was terrifying to do like it was, it was it was a big bet that I think really paid off for us. Yeah.
Ben 1:03:06
I think we're winding down here. Is there anything we haven't asked you that you're like, hey, I really want to mention XYZ, either about immortality or just kind of about you and your trajectory?
Natalie Watson 1:03:16
Um, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, I appreciate like the interest I think that's really cool that it's a perspective that you know, people want to hear about I think, if you haven't played in mortality yet, I would really appreciate it if you gave it a try. I think it's a cool video game. I think it's like a I think it's something to share with someone like I think it's, it's an experience that is bettered by getting to talk about it with someone is like the mystery really starts to unravel when you get to compare notes with someone about about what you're watching and what you're experiencing. So if you haven't played it already, or if you have already played it, play it with someone new. or introduce it to someone and yeah, just be nice to all the game devs in your life are trying or
Ben 1:04:26
thank you so much for taking the time and coming on and talking to us. We appreciate
Natalie Watson 1:04:30
Oh, thank you. I could sit here all day and chat into a microphone. Thank you for for the invitation. It's been such a such a blast to get to talk to y'all.
Phil 1:04:41
Yeah, thanks so much.
And that was our conversation with Natalie Watson of half mermaid productions. This is where we talked all about immortality, you know, the game journalists to game development industrial pipeline as some people joke about and how we are in a dumpster fire. That is the games journalism industry today. You know, Ben, what were some things that, you know, you're kind of thinking about at the tail end of this episode?
Ben 1:05:35
Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like I gently like need to apologize because I was like, let's just focus on on the depths of the darkness of the the world of, you know, games journalism. There's been a lot of recent articles that I think it put me in his headspace. Nieman lab had an article like, right before we talked to Natalie Watson about like, is there a future for games journalism? I think this is something that's on a lot of people's minds, when you look around and you see all these layoffs at, you know, game Gamespot, IGN, you know, name, the name the company, basically. And so it's just like, well, what, what is the future here? And I think it's obviously felt something that's like, near and dear to my heart, because even though I'm in journalism, and it's marginally safer, marginally more stable than a games journalism, it's not much we're talking about, like, you know, degrees here. And so I'm always thinking about, like, what is the future? And like, what does it mean that, that so many people come in, I think, especially as a young person come in, right, a bunch of great stuff, you know, are in the process of building their career and then are like, either fired or have to take, you know, something else to get a life that's like, more stable or like, pays better? And like, what is it? What does it mean for this state of like, whether it's criticism, games journalism, or just like regular old, you know, journalism, journalism and reporting, because they think both industries look very similar.
Phil 1:07:03
Yeah, you know, something that I'm thinking about, just as you're talking about those things, and we didn't, we didn't get to talk about it with Natalie, specifically, but I just recently saw, the Twitter handle is escaping me. But it's basically this Twitter that posts new game, new jobs in the games industry. And they just put out this report that was essentially talking about how like 80% of the jobs that they posted in 2022. Were requiring like three plus years of experience, and how, basically, we're in this moment, and on the game development side of things, where basically, there's way too many senior roles and not enough Junior roles. And it's interesting, and logging that next to games journalism, or you know, journalism in general, where it seems as if there's a lot more of these entry level jobs, where people are kind of being underpaid, asked to do a lot of work. And then, you know, they're kind of burnt out and left to have to go somewhere else in order to to have a semblance of a real kind of living after all these years, and all this work that they've put in. And, yeah, I mean, I don't have like a answer or a really like a major revelation in there. But I'm just thinking about that. As your you're kind of unpacking for us some of these ideas around like what's happening, and, you know, the journalism space. And you know, off air, we were just talking about how NPR, for instance, really kind of bet a bit on podcasting. And now we're seeing maybe some of that bet isn't isn't isn't. It's not panning out. Right. So we're kind of seeing like a kind of reckoning happening across the industry.
Ben 1:08:48
Right? Yeah. So I forget if it was at the beginning of March, or it was a couple of weeks ago, either way, MPR announced that they were going to have 10% layoffs. And they had kind of been behind. I mean, CNN and like Vox and all these other places had announced Washington Post had announced layoffs sooner. And then it was like, is it going to happen? Is it going to happen? And then NPR put up this thing a couple of weeks back that was like, Yep, there's 10% layoffs coming down. And they kind of pointed that podcast and said like, oh, yeah, you know, podcast funding ad funding here is just like not where it needs to be. And so you know, like, we're not going to be able to keep a lot of these positions and so you know, a lot of people are gonna lose their job and the scary thing that happens at least you know, for me being at a smaller station is that like you think about like when you apply to your next job, you're now competing you know for like even at a smaller station you're not competing with people a pool of people who have like X number of years with National Public Radio like with the the big head NPR station and so like it just as the as the pool is shrinking. It's this musical chairs game, I think where it's Like you realize, like, you're in a room with people who have like much more experience and like at the end of the day, like, they're probably going to be able to hold on to one of those chairs a little bit longer than you. And so it's just like, always kind of being in a place where you're like, how much how much longer can I can I do this? How much longer am I going to stick around? And, you know, one of the things that I think about a lot, because I've been seeing, you know, a lot of games, journalists, as they lose their jobs, like tweeted out, and I was actually just kind of tweeting back and forth with Linda Holmes today. And she said something similar, which is like, I'm just happy to be here, hope I get a little bit longer, right, where it's like, that attitude of like, it's nice to be here. But like, you know, my time is coming eventually. Like, it's it's like, it's almost like it's a competition with the clock, where it's like, you know, you don't really like nobody really expects to make it all the way to retirement. It's almost like they're, you know, we're all just playing this game of like, we're here as long as we last. And then, you know, like, I hope, hope it was a good time, basically. Which is just like, I mean, I guess a good attitude to have, but also feels crazy to me that it's like, yeah,
Phil 1:11:15
which I mean, that's it's so outrageous, I think, in relation, like with Linda Holmes, specifically, because it's just like, you know, she's like the face of pop culture, happy hour, and which I think for a lot of people, when they think about NPR, whether it's like, you're in the car driving somewhere, or you just listened to the podcast, like, that's one of the pillars of the station. And, you know, I think all this is so wrapped up to and like, we're criticism is in the games industry and abroad, and like, is there going to be a life for it going forward? You know, like, I think even in the games industry, specifically, in the game journalism side, the same thing is happening right where you have, like you said, at the top of the show, IGN fan by GameSpot polygon, we're out, you know, all these publications, kind of accessing their employees that have years and years of experience, which then just makes it that whenever there is a new job for a games journalist at any these publications, it's like, why would anybody who's not at the caliber of, you know, X editor at fan vitae or wherever else? Why would they even apply to those jobs, there's basically no chance that they would get it over somebody with so many years of experience, which then I think is bleeding into what we're seeing. Like what I just joked about if like the journalist game development, industrial pipeline, I've been seeing so many replies to the different journalists who post about their layoffs. I've been seeing so many replies from people in PR, in community management, marketing, saying like, hey, you know, there if there isn't any jobs for y'all on the criticism, journalism side of things, like, come work on the PR marketing side of things, which is always going to be this kind of tightrope act, I think, specifically, in the games industry, where there's always this conversation of like, what does criticism serve? What do reviews do? Are they like marketing? Is it supposed to be holding these games accountable? And, you know, there's obviously so much kind of vitriol, whenever a negative review comes out from the from different fan bases of like, oh, you know, you're you're being you're being paid to, you know, give it a bad, bad or good review or whatever. You know, there's a so much kind of wrapped up, I think, in games criticism, specifically that I think Natalie is a really interesting person to talk to you about it, because in a lot of senses, she worked at one of the unicorns of the industry, which is waypoint which can thrive basically, exclusively on podcasting, and streaming. And then obviously, the great reporting that they're doing. But yeah, I don't know, it just not not to say that this conversation left me, like, not hopeful or whatever. But it definitely just bolsters some of the questions that I already have of like, where's the future going to be for all my journalist friends out there, especially in the games industry, which seems a little bit more volatile than some of the other verticals?
Ben 1:14:34
Yeah, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is she kind of talked about like, the ideal review and like even being like, I'm not opposed to a negative review, as long as it engaged with the game on its terms, like really, like took the time to kind of sift through the game and what the game is doing. Then I'm like, still on board. And like how how, how rare that that sort of thing can be right. And like, that sort of thing takes like time and effort and work. And, you know, if that's not valued, then like, yeah, it does just go away. And sometimes I'm like, you know, is this just that we're English pilled. It's like, we both have, you know, Master's in English. And so of course, this is like, what we seek out, you know, sometimes my brain worms are so bad that it's like, sometimes I'm more excited to read criticism about a thing that I am to, like, engage with, like the movie or the book, or the video game itself, right? Because I'm just like, let's unpack like, what this thing is and what it does. And maybe, you know, maybe that maybe it is that like that there's not a there's not a space for that, or there's not an interest in that. But I hope that's not true. Like, I hope that's not the case, because that's the stuff that it's just like, I can't get enough of.
Phil 1:15:50
Yeah, well, I mean, if anything, what I'm kind of left thinking about, I think, especially I forget what, maybe it was Hogwarts legacy recently, like all the discourse around that, and like, should you review the game? Or should you not review the game and everything? And I think that was like a really good moment of where I initially initially fell on. It was like, Oh, I don't want to engage with it at all. Or, like, I wouldn't want that. I think I tweeted, like, I wouldn't want that in my portfolio portfolio or something like that. Yeah. And then, you know, as the discourse kind of evolved, I think, my opinion ended up changing a bit. It might have been Peter Jackson review, because I think I think they did it for polygon or one of them. But um, you know, the importance of having like, criticism from people who are going to kind of provide that more negative or critical lens on on the topic, when so many of these other kind of reviews or essays on it are kind of not digging that deep. I think that's so important, right? And it feels like, unlike, you know, film, or our books, it seems like games specifically has a major kind of issue with like, how it, how it engages with criticism, and like how fan bases engage with criticism as being something that actually bolsters a work, whether it's a negative or positive response, versus it just kind of being like, a hot take, or like you're dunking on something that people enjoy? And it seems like that's always the the tightrope that we're seeing in this space of like, how do we carve out a place for criticism? And how do we educate people about how criticism isn't just like saying, You dislike something it's like, actually spending time with unpacking and engaging deeply with something that for the most part, if you're gonna write an essay about something, you probably are deeply intrigued by x video game in this case?
Ben 1:17:58
Yeah, yeah, just like, I think I think that's right, where it's like hafting having to have a space to engage with stuff and to like, really just like dig in. Phil, I, this might get us like, way off track, but I don't know how much you've been engaging with. There have been a lot of essays recently about like, what is that? What is the future of the English degree? There was one in the New Yorker, there was one in like, the National Review. I don't know if you've seen any of those. But it's like, you know, is there a space for like, that kind of criticism is like kind of the bulk of like, what those are asking, like to kick it out. Even beyond our, you know, obviously, you and I are focused on like games, journalism and stuff. But it was like, it was kind of asking, like, what are we doing when we've so devalued? Kind of like liberal arts degrees? Like what is that? Where does that leave people in terms of how to engage with stuff? And I think like the one of the takeaways was like, how do we help teach people to engage with stuff in a way where they can be critical of it in a way that still engages with it instead of just like, thing bad move on? But like, how do we get to a point where it's like, okay, but like, why is it bad? Like, what is bad about it? And again, like, I don't know, it's, I think it could be easy, it's, I'm getting self conscious here. I'm like, I might just like to up my own ass about this stuff. Because it's like, this is what I studied, this is what I care about. But I think it's important.
Phil 1:19:22
Now, I mean, I think that the that New York Times article, specifically would actually be like a really great thing for us to maybe unpack on the SDL I'm, like, really dive into it. Because yeah, I mean, one of the, the quotes from that article that I've been lingering on is is just like, you know, we're kind of in a moment right now are young people will have had the least amount of education on like, human history and like humanity's ever and like how that's going to, you know, fundamentally change not only how we engage to each other, but also like media history, you know, et cetera. And I mean, again, yeah, maybe maybe very biased because we studied those things, but it doesn't seem good, you know, doesn't seem like that's a good trajectory to, to, to bring us down
Ben 1:20:19
to the CounterPoint. Are we turning into just old Old? Old curmudgeons on the porch? I don't know.
Phil 1:20:25
You know, I've got the gray hairs coming in. It could it could be that I seem to get my spittoon worst part,
Ben 1:20:31
they look really good.
Phil 1:20:36
Well, yeah, well, I'd love to actually kind of engage with that. I'm on the study hall. And yeah, I mean, I think that, as you all can, can sense talking to Natalie Watson, not only about immortality, which is also really engaged with, like, how we interact with and unpack media, or men and also talk what what sticks are our memory? Like, all these things, in addition to like, our conversations around games, journalism with her, I think it's definitely left us, you know, thinking about the future. And, you know, things we do here at origin story. So yeah, I don't know that. I don't know if you had any closing thoughts. But I just found that this conversation, for one was like, really relaxed, but also like really kind of thought provoking.
Ben 1:21:28
I think yes, to all the above, I felt really good. I really appreciate Natalie talking to us. I do want to say so now that we're like, towards the end of the episode, I'm kind of assuming that everybody at this point has turned off the podcast has stopped listening. There's like two or three people who might be still with us. And so here is a good place for me to say, I really appreciate that you didn't out me as a more civilized age listener, which I am. There was like a whole conversation beforehand, where I was like, Phil, you can't out me. I listened to that pot all the time. Which Natalie is one of the CO hosts on, and I was like, you just you can't do it, brother. And you were like, it's okay. Well, and I just think
Phil 1:22:12
you were sweating over there. But I mean, to be honest, there was moments I had to, I had to hold myself back from from also kind of fanboying I've been saying something about how she's like Keyblade Master based off of like, the 10. Our Kingdom Hearts deep dive, what they did. So you know, we're in the same boat here.
Ben 1:22:34
You know, did I pick up Ducote? Dooku? Jedi lost because of that podcast? Yes. Is that very embarrassing? Yes, it is.
Phil 1:22:44
Yeah, I mean, if you all want to check out some of the awesome things that Natalie Watson is doing for more civilized age, or some of the older stuff that she did for a waypoint. Or obviously, if you haven't checked out immortality, yeah, you can check her out on Twitter at Natalie Watson, and all the immortality stuff at half mermaid productions website. Yeah, thanks so much for listening. And we will see you all here, again, on the next episode of origin story. Thanks again for checking out the show. If you would like to follow me on Twitter, it is three D Cisco on Twitter as well as Instagram. And you can follow Ben on Twitter at sad underscore radio underscore lad. We wanted to thank melody Hirsch, who designed all the awesome cover art and design work for the website and the podcast itself. And we wanted to thank Ryan Hopper who does all the intro and outro music, as well as some of the interstitial stuff you hear, and dinner in different episodes. If you enjoyed the show, we'd love it. If you left a review on iTunes, you know, subscribed on either iTunes or Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. You know, reviews helped us get the show in front of more people, and only takes a couple of minutes. So yeah, if you could do that for us, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Ben 1:24:15
You should also visit our website at WWW dot origin story dot show. It's a great place to look at all of our episodes that are full transcripts and a link to our Discord channel, where we talk with listeners about everything Oh, s and beyond. There's a lot of posting that goes on in there. So I don't know if you're into that. Come join us. You can also email us at me origin story pod@gmail.com We're always looking for feedback, whether it's ideas for games that we should play books, or we should read guests that we should have on the show. Just hit us up with thoughts feelings. We're always looking for feedback, even if it's that Ben has an annoying voice and you don't want to hear it anymore. I mean, that's totally fine. So write us in. You can also follow us on Twitter. We're at at origin story underscore. We're our Instagram at origin story dot show. As always, thanks for listening
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
