Brooke Maggs (Control) on New Kinds of Story in Video Games
Episode Description
Brooke Maggs is a Senior Narrative Designer for Remedy Games in Helsinki - although she originally hails from Austrailia.
She’s worked on a host of award winning games including Control, Florence, Paperbark, and The Gardens Between.
In 2017 she won the MCV Pacific Xbox Women in Games Creative Impact award for her role in the game industry.
We talk about how Brooke got into gaming and what "narrative design" really means.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can find Brooke Maggs here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:18
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And Ben, we're talking to Brooke mags today, the Narrative Designer for games such as control, Florence paperbark. And the gardens between. And we talked everything revolving around narrative design versus games, writing, and so much more. This was a really cool conversation.
Ben 0:49
Yeah, I mean, I think this is like, this is a conversation that helps me understand kind of what narrative design is, she does just a really good job of helping us kind of walk through like thinking about what it means to be a writer who writes in the in the game space, specifically. And so we watched like some of her interviews and kind of, you know, she's she's someone who's pretty big in the game industry, I think, and has walked through, like, oh, what does it mean to be a Narrative Designer, it's this kind of growing field. And I'm going to read this quote, because I think it'll be helpful to kind of set up this conversation. But she talks about so there's a quote from another Narrative Designer, Molly Maloney, who talks about the difference between a writer and a narrative designer. And it's that a writer cares about the character's relationship to the story. But a Narrative Designer cares about the player's relationship to the story, which I think is a great way of kind of framing the way that you think about like what it means to write in video games.
Phil 1:49
Yeah, and I mean, these, these are my words, not hers. But I think in some ways, if I were to relate it back to writing, like a novel or something like that, it's kind of the difference between how I understand the characters and how they navigate the world, that they're that I'm creating, versus the form of the novel, or how the story is told, and how the readers experience is navigating the narrative and understanding it and having that that enjoyable experience reading,
Ben 2:18
right. And she gives us great example from Florence, which is one of the games we talked about, it's like this cute, really came about relationships. And you can kind of play it on your phone. But the example that she gives is like, when Florence meets her kind of future boyfriend. There's a scene where it's like, you get puzzle pieces, and you have to turn them into a conversation. And as you get to know him, the boyfriend, the puzzle pieces get bigger and bigger, and the conversation basically gets easier and easier. And so it's a way that like the game design is starting to reflect what's what's happening within the story of the game.
Phil 2:59
Yeah, and then outside of outside of those insights, Brooke does a really wonderful job of talking through some of the more unconventional or experimental narrative stories or designs that are happening in games that she's worked on, such as control, which is, you know, a bigger name, triple A game with, you know, a higher production value, that if you're a fan of something like The X Files, or Twin Peaks, it's a it's a mystery driven game that's about the paranormal. And it tells its narrative in a very nonlinear found object kind of way. And she kind of walks through, how do you make that an enjoyable experience for a player while also telling, you know, a somewhat cohesive narrative. So she kind of walks through what it's what it's like, designing games like that, some of the pitfalls that goes into it, and so much more. So it was it was a really insightful and educational, I'd say, conversation about game development.
Ben 3:59
Yeah, I just I think she does such a good job of making these big concepts that like I'm not an expert on but makes them like pretty approachable, for sure.
Phil 4:07
So you know, how about we don't keep you all waiting. Brookes gonna do a way better job of explaining this stuff, then then we are. So without further ado, let's listen to Brooke talk about narrative design.
Ben 4:20
Roll the clip.
Phil 4:43
Brooke mags is a senior Narrative Designer for remedy games and Helsinki. Although she originally hails from Australia. She's worked on a host of award winning games including control, Florence paperbark and the gardens between and 2017 She won the MC V Pacific I spokeswoman and games creative Impact Award for her role in the games industry. Brooke, thanks for coming to join us.
Brooke Maggs 5:07
Thank you very much for having me.
Phil 5:09
Yeah, how are you doing? How, what's up with remedy these days? What are you? What are you up to?
Brooke Maggs 5:15
Oh, I'm, I'm good. Thank you. Remedies going really well. I'm excited for what I'm working on. Unfortunately, I can't really talk much about it, which is the nature of the industry. But it's a, oh, gosh, I can't even say anything. But it's exciting. It's exciting, because I have a say, and a bit more agency in the world building and the story and the systems behind the delivery of the narrative. So I'm learning a lot currently in my role, and really enjoying that. Generally, we're in summertime in Helsinki, and it's beautiful, and also quite warm, which is a nice change, to be honest. So there's a there's a general update across the board.
Phil 6:08
Great. Well, I'm glad I'm glad that that whatever the secret project is coming along, how about, we kind of go back and before we get into, like the individual projects that control and everything like that, you know, one of the things that we've been thinking about with this, this podcast is getting a better understanding of the roles that people in the games industry play. And it seems to me that narrative design, while maybe talked a lot about and like the sphere of gaming isn't necessarily that well understood in terms of like, what it what it is. So I'm wondering if you could just start there, and just you talk a little bit of like, what does it mean to be a Narrative Designer?
Brooke Maggs 6:53
Yes, absolutely. Being a Narrative Designer, is well, it's a highly collaborative role, where the core is a combination of designing the systems and things that deliver the narrative to the player, but also in the way they interact with the story, and also still having an understanding of story and character. So there's a bit of a combination between story theory and knowledge of how to execute a good story, along with what mechanics suits the kind of emotion. In the story, we're trying to tell, more practically, what narrative designers do on a day to day can vary widely, depending on their seniority. But also, depending on the studio, there are different responsibilities. But for the most part, we may help design a dialogue system, if that's in the game, or oversee how we would like players to interact with narrative items. Or if the player or sorry, if the character has a journal in the game, then we might be responsible for helping design how we'd like players to interact with that. We also might help with shooting and filming actors for the game, facial capture, or voice capture, things like that. But on a whole, we help communicate the narrative and the story and the world development to the rest of the development team. And do a lot of things that are considered narrative work, but are not physically putting words into a script. So in that way, everyone thinks that narrative in games is just the writing. But in fact, there's a lot more. And in fact, you can really see that in games like the gardens between or Florence for that matter, where there is no dialogue, or there's no text, or not much of it anyway. But the story is still told, and things still come through, we still feel by interacting with those games. And that's good narrative design. So I call it a combination of game design, and with a specific focus on the players interaction with the story.
Ben 9:14
Yeah. And so I was watching a talk that you gave, and you use this Molly Maloney quote, where she talks about the difference between narrative design and writing, is that a writer cares about the character's relationship to his story. And it Narrative Designer talks about a player's relationship to that story, can you can you maybe unpack that for us?
Brooke Maggs 9:31
Absolutely. Um, so a reader or viewer or audience were of a game active so they have motivations that are often related to gameplay, like solving puzzles or getting achievements or progressing in the game that are not necessarily narrative. But games need the player to interact with the story to move forward? So we, I guess, focus on moving the story forward from a from a narrative perspective. So for example, when I was designing the motels in control, I was sitting with a writer with clay. And Jesse enters the motel for the first time, and there's a black pyramid on the door. It's clay, who goes Jesse's never seen that before, she would say something. So he's in the character's head. And I'm in the player's head thinking right there in a new area, we've got to make sure there's an interact on that door. So they know they can interact. But then Clay said, Well, if there's an interact on the door, then she should say something like it's locked. So he'll make sure that that line is recorded, and will sort of bring together our joint caring for the player and the character. But that's not to say that one's you know, solely responsible for one or the other. They do crossover a lot. But I think Molly's quote is a really great way of showing where the definition is. So the character is how, how they're responding to the situation. And then us, from the player perspective, how they would be responding to the situation, if that makes sense.
Phil 11:16
Yeah, I think Ben you, the gardens between, you're just telling me a little bit that kind of bleeds in really well, with that.
Ben 11:23
Yeah. And so so I should say, you know, I was just, I picked this up recently, and I was kind of playing through it. And one of the things I noticed is that you're not really controlling the characters, you're to some degree kind of controlling time, there's this time mechanic that you're, you're using to move through it. And so, you know, you Phil and I have been talking to a lot of people, both in kind of the actual kind of novel writers, and then also visual novels and thinking about, like, what is the relationship to kind of the reader or player to the different texts. And I think the gardens between has this interesting thing where it's like, it feels like as a player, you, you are very much a part of this story in this way, where you're kind of controlling the characters, but you aren't the characters. And so I'm wondering if that's maybe you can talk about, like, how that gets at this idea of, of narrative design and telling a story through kind of interaction, as opposed to say, cutscenes?
Brooke Maggs 12:23
Oh, absolutely. That was a big question for us. In a part of the development. The Game Director, Henrik, and myself and other members of the team would be like, Yeah, but do we need to explain who the player is in this game, because the main mechanic is moving time forward, and the idea of time manipulation, but the characters have specific jobs. So arena likes to carry the light to light certain flowers or take them to different parts of the game. And then front control controls the time around different objects. And we had to be very clear about who had what mechanics, first of all, to tell a little bit about their personality, we had sort of limited ways to tell the story in that game. So we characterized arena as someone who would walk forward first, and who's often leading the charge. There's a collaboration, I would say, between the player and the characters, because they're helping these events unfold. And we got into very deep conversations about this deterministic sense of everything that happens in these levels is theoretically going to happen. But as a player, you're allowing time to move forward. So the reason I do this is because this is the constant motion that we would do to talk about time sliding. And we even thought about different ways of trying to show the player that they're manipulating time, we had different kinds of UI, like a slider that would let them put their finger on the screen. When we were designing specifically for the mobile version, to move time backward and forward. But then we didn't really we didn't think that we needed that on the screen. So then we went to war, could we have objects in the world that are like leaves falling or water or wind, things that show the passage of time to show the player that they are in fact manipulating time and not these characters. It was very tricky to get around and it took a long time for all of those pieces to come together and realize that sometimes going forward in time requires you to go backwards to solve part of a puzzle.
We did look at other games that use time as a mechanic like Braid, to see how they did that. So that was really interesting. But in terms of the player's relationship to the mechanics, we didn't think maybe we have to explain that we had long explanations that how do we introduce the player? Is their role? Are they our God? Are they turning the pages of a storybook are they but then we realized that perhaps we don't need to explain that. And that disconnect isn't a bad thing, we were a bit worried about it, we thought that players would feel a bit alienated from the characters. But instead, it doesn't seem to be the case, it sort of brings an element of Joy to the world. For example, when you move time to move the little jumping creatures, that's a lot of fun, I think. And you have to really pay attention. So then the mechanics become about asking the player to pay attention to the events, and to time and to what happens in the world. And so if we're asking the players to observe, then we need to make the world a interesting enough to observe and have enough things in the world that give players clues about how to solve these puzzles. And that took a lot of play testing, to, you know, just iterating on those specific puzzles. So for people who don't know, you need the environments in the gardens between these 3d gardens that have fragments of memories between these two characters in them. So for example, one memory might be about them building a cubby house together. And then in this specific level, you might do things like you need to move time forward and backwards for a character to jump on a soar in order to soar through a piece of wood, so that they can get to the other side of so it creates a bridge so that they can continue their journey. And so that time manipulation, then I think helped, the play is connected to the memories, more specifically, as opposed to the characters. So if each level is a memory, and we're observing and connecting to that, then we're investing in this friendship, because each member is about these two people becoming friends and getting to know each other, the whole story is about friendship, probably should have started with that. So that's how we got to that point. But at the start, it was very, a bit anxiety inducing about not fully explaining to the player who they are. But there are a lot of games that don't do that, we realized, so we decided to let that go. And instead focus on what the game mechanics are actually doing, like what their purpose is. And that was more helpful.
Ben 18:10
Yeah. And I guess we should say, you know, the game was about kind of excavating memory. And I even wondered about, you know, to some degree, it made me feel like, you could, you could even think of yourself as being one of the characters, maybe looking back on these moments, because the the game not to be too spoilery is to some degree about saying goodbye to a friend as well. And so, you know, it made me wonder, you know, because you're able to manipulate time, it says though, you're kind of going through these memories, and there's also these moments at the end of every level, where you can use kind of stop. And you basically, you can, you don't have to move the controller at all. And so you can kind of be stuck in time, and just like sitting in this moment with this, that you had with this person. And it was like, I mean, it was just, it was a very, like, emotional experience for me and like emotional, again, not through cutscenes, or not through kind of a hard story with dialogue, but just like the movement of the mechanics. And so I think it's just such a great example of what narrative design, you know, when it was working, what it does,
Brooke Maggs 19:19
yes, absolutely, thank you. And also, I have to say when narrative design really does work to when the whole team gets behind the idea of what the mechanics are for and what the game is trying to say. So I think in absence of a narrative designer, if there isn't one, games, game teams can still really benefit from thinking about what are the mechanics saying about the story, like what you know, we're being asked we have to observe the environment to find answers to the puzzles. What does that mean? What is the environment? What are we always looking at and why So that can definitely be something as well. And I think Florence is another really good example of a team. Mountains who based in Melbourne, who understands that one of my favorite narrative design examples is the puzzle where I'm sorry to divert to a different game. Just do it, do it. Yeah, have a another example is my one of my favorite ones. When Florence and Chris are having an argument, and you are trying to quickly the speech bubbles, there's nothing in them. But they're little puzzles in and of themselves, as in puzzle pieces that you piece together to form the bubble. And as the argument gets more intense, you keep, you know, quickly trying to piece the puzzle together, and you feel the intensity of the argument.
And that mechanic is a repetition of one of the same one that happens at the start of the game, when they first go on a first date. And they're talking. And you Florence is obviously a little bit shy, and you're slowly each speech bubble has has less and less pieces, so it becomes easier and easier to complete. And so we understand that the conversation between them is easier. We don't know what they're saying, we don't see the dialogue or text on the screen, we just know these speech bubbles are getting easier for us to piece together as a player.
And so we really feel what's going on between them. Yes, and, you know, my part in all of that was to talk with the team more about what the emotion identifying the emotional beats of the story first, and then figuring out because they were prototyping mechanics, and they were arranging a story. And then we looked at them both and, you know, talked about what the mechanics were saying about each of the story. But it's, which was really fun.
Phil 22:16
Yeah, I think I'm looking at the catalogue of games that you've worked on, and especially the ones that we're just talking about, in relation to control, you know, the tones are also vastly different. And I'm curious, you know, when you enter a project, you know, how do you approach that as it as a design? Are you coming in at the start? Are you kind of maybe coming in later? And what's the whole process like?
Brooke Maggs 22:44
Well, for Florence, I came in a bit later, there was a quite a bit there. Same for control from the for the gardens between I came in, quite right at the start, but the the approach is different for each of them. Because I used to be a freelancer. I, by nature had to be very flick flexible, and ask questions of the team about the story and the audience and the game experience and try and think about if the project has already started, what are they going full? For control specifically, it was understanding how remedy wanted to do the new, weird genre, and realize what that means for them. So I researched the genre, I was reading and watching reference material, talking to the team reading documents that were currently created. But also I have to say, that was really helpful to was looking at a lot of the world building and art creation that was going on, we have a world design director, who worked on the game whose job is basically production, design, but in a game sense. So what does the government building who deals with para natural events and studying them? What does that look like? So looking at that was really great to get a feel for the world. But then also looking at what devices were were using, for example, Jessie was clearly the outsider in this world, and she was our way in to the world. So that was really beneficial to then think about what she knows and what she doesn't know. And then, for me, I moved on to looking more specifically at the side missions, because that's what I focused on and what they were specifically trying to add. And also the motel sequences which had a quite a specific tone again, for the world, which was more being spaces of transition. So the player leaves the oldest house and goes to this strange motel and they solve a puzzle to get a key which allows them to leave the motel and enter to a new area of the oldest house, it was a way to open up the world a little bit more. So the way I got to understand the tone and intent was to talk to their creative director and talk to the game director. And then work with a team to pull together sort of updated pitch for those spaces, because they were currently in prototype when I arrived. And then I proposed some, you know, light puzzles, and some ideas for making this space almost, to normal and repetitive, that it's strange being a motel where every room looks exactly the same. And then the game director and creative director wanted each motel to have a unique signature or something strange. So in one, there's blood under the door, one of the doors and in another one, someone's on the outside knocking to come in. And then you know, nothing sort of comes of that it's just very weird. And so working on that, pulling those together, and then reviewing them with the team, and then reviewing them with the creative director and Game Director. So they would have sort of final say is about what worked and what didn't. And I quickly picked up on what the intentions were. For Florence, I was in a consulting role. So it was my job to understand the team's vision for the story and what they were trying to say. And we talked a lot about romance and the romance genre, and how romance plots work. And I, I talked to Ken about the meet cute that happens in romance, novels, stories, usually, where we see the main character, clearly may be lacking something or needing something or wanting something in particular, and then they meet their love interest. And the meeting is sort of the almost the can be the sort of the middle of the first act or the end of the first kind of depends, but that is the point where the main character's life maybe changes or it doesn't, but we kind of know that that's the person who's going to make them change. And I was saying in romance often, like from a narrative perspective, we think about the love interest as an antagonist, because they, they push the main character to change, which is a good example of that, or Bridget Jones is a good example.
Whether they change, hopefully, not necessarily just for the other person, but the other person, maybe embody something that they need to find in themselves. And that was a topic of conversation we had for Florence, because Ken was really keen not to have Krish be Florence's saving grace, like she needed to be able to save herself. And he wanted that to be her conclusion. So because I was saying, Well, I was talking a lot about the meet cute, and he said, but I think maybe I'd like to have something before that. That shows us that Florence's you know, needing something. And I said, Yeah, like what we talked about what she could be needing. And I think there, a lot of my discussions were helpful in sort of talking about these ideas in different especially romance plots, and how we could use them or not use them, or twist them to help get their story tighter. And even at the start of that game, Ken was sort of saying I want the interactions to be a bit boring, like I want them to be a bit mundane. So you press the alarm clock twice, and you clean Florence's teeth and you fill up little bars like you would in other, perhaps other mobile titles, and you tap her social media, you're only getting sort of two ways to interact with that. And that, funnily enough, is the only sort of little fleck of color that we see in the start of the game. And the interactions are specifically about being mundane. And then she finds a little something that she made when she was young, I think it's a butterfly or it's some sort of paper montage of different colors. And she opens the box, and then she has a little flashback to her childhood and then as a player. That's the first time that we get to be creative with something we're not we don't even have to rush to put these little colored bits of paper onto the shape of a boat or a butterfly. And so, this is a long answer to your question, but I just realized that's another favorite example. Full of narrative design where we're specifically being a bit boring, to show that her life is a bit boring at the start. And she's clearly yearning to be creative again. And then she meets Christian, he is a creative person. But she also sees that has consequences as well for him. So yeah, we were talking about that complex story, and then how to actually get that across,
Ben 30:28
I should just say one of my favorite parts of Florence is what's the boring quote unquote, boring segment in the beginning, when you're just sitting on the couch, and the only thing you have to do is touch the little sushi rolls to eat them. And I swear to God, every single time I get I will go get takeout sushi, I like cannot help but think of that sequence as I will just eat as they're just like, tapping the sushi rolls to eat them every single time I'm eating sushi now. It's like just like embedded in my in my brain
one of the things that you're kind of talking about, and I and I noticed this, you brought up the gardens in between, and I, you were giving a talk about kind of finding a narrative that works and about how like, oh, the hero's journey doesn't actually fit, we have to find a different kind of narrative. And you're also talking about it with Florence and the weird fiction with control. You know, it seems like there's there's a lot of ways that the way you're thinking about games pulls from other kinds of literature or other kinds of genres. And, and I'm wondering how you think about, you know, mapping things like a three act structure or mapping other kinds of genres into games and, and what you know, for you is different, or how do you transform those things to make them work within? I guess games?
Brooke Maggs 31:57
That's a really good question. Um, the hero's journey is very tempting to jump to in games, because the, the idea is that you're, well, obviously going on a journey, there's a clear sort of beginning and end point. And if you're moving across a map in a game, then we can clearly sort of narrative contextualize that, as you're moving across the world, you go stronger along the way, you gather a party of mentors who help you along the way, things get, you know, all these last moment. And that works really well from a like game progression as well for contextualizing the player getting stronger, or what they, you know, a lot of it is to do with sort of that that power fantasy. But then there's a lot of really useful plots in literature, and other places that don't necessarily turn on that idea that I think a very useful, especially for the kind of games that I've worked on. Because those haven't been the MO at all, we did start with the idea of friend and arena growing stronger in the gardens between and gaining these new abilities. And if we needed to signal that in a bit of an RPG kind of way, and I'm really glad we didn't, because it's sort of a bit more about the wonder of it all, really, which I think is really nice, I think, I think very, hands on practical. Writing skills, like writing dialogue, for example, is well learned and thought about in other areas like literature and film writing, especially film because they have to be so clever. And even some of the best, you know, film scenes have no dialogue at all again. So I think there's some things to borrow from, like the canon of how to write and tell stories for games specifically, especially because, I mean, some, some games do dialogue quite well, but I don't necessarily think that's the the main thing like I think, because if characters are we do like to see characters talking, but often long cutscenes unless you're down for that kind of experience, and I often am I really like story games like that. But if but sometimes, I would really like to interact. And so if the dialogue that doesn't necessarily mean the dialogue should be interactive, but I like people that speak and who have opinions and wants and needs, but um Well, actually, that's a good point. That is a key storytelling thing that is true across the board, I think Like, regardless of medium, we need to have characters that we understand or relate to. And the way that we do that is, you know, pretty similar across the board, there are some key rules that you can do to make characters relatable. And usually it's by showing them, showing them as someone who needs something or wants something or feels incomplete. Or someone who is so complete and amazing that we kind of just onboard to see them be amazing, which is sometimes more of a superhero kind of vibe, though more and more superheroes on screen are having a lot of trouble, you know, personally and personally growing, which I think is really interesting. But I think I might be sort of wandering off the path here a little bit. But I think it's worth looking at other media about storytelling theory, when you're feeling stuck, but there's no reason to solidly stick to them. Like there are a lot of storytelling, like the three act structure, or the five act structure, or this kind of plot or that kind of plot. You don't have to stick to them completely, but they can be a good guide, if you're not quite sure. You know, where your story might be falling down. They're essentially criteria heuristics to help see is, you know, people find my game or story quite boring at this point, is it? Is it a story problem, let's look at why that might be the case. And go through these tools. So I think there's a lot to lend to them. But then it's finding how to reinterpret them for a game format.
Ben 36:46
Yeah. And maybe another way to get this question, I was watching a, I was watching like a Tim Rogers review of Dragon Quest. And he was talking about how the mechanics of the JRPG make it so that they, they kind of reinforce a narrative that is about friendship and relationship, because you're kind of figuring out how to how to work together with people. And so like, inherently, you're having a conversation, you know, the story is about friendship, and coming together with a team of people. And then like, the mechanics also kind of reinforced that. And so, you know, one of the questions that I think I have is like, what are the you know, what language of kind of narrative design? Or what language of games allows us to maybe think differently about about the kinds of narratives that we use and the narratives that we have? And do you know, the mechanical language of games give us other options for telling
Brooke Maggs 37:45
stories? I think they can. Yes, because narrative is often the context for the rules, like the mechanical rules. So the character motivations, the setting and the plot. Good world building, is often the stage for the character and for the player, and for what we're going to ask them to do in the game for the entirety of the game. And narrative. I always say that narrative is important, because at the very least, it's context, like it's not. And that cut does not necessarily cutscenes or anything, but if there's an environment, what are you putting the environment in the environment? You know, is it sci fi? Is it fantasy? Is that the modern world? Is it a bedroom? Is it, you know, a nightclub? It's the context. So when we understand the context, we kind of know then always showing players what they can do or might want to do. And the mechanics, I think, can lend can can come first, like I think we're you, we have a game where we need to work in a group of characters with different abilities. And, you know, is seems like a good way to start with telling a story about friendship. And I always think that sometimes we're a little bit held back, maybe not so much. Now with a lot of the new games that are coming out sort of doing different things. But we're a bit held back when the main mechanic is often combat, or is always about combat. It's always shooting or it's killing, or it's something and the main sort of narrative thing we need to do on our side is go, Why are you killing people? And why is it okay, you know, why would we want to do that? Which is often why these games are war games or their post apocalyptic survival games, you have no choice, or these people are going to bring down humanity as we know it, or it's a zombie apocalypse and it's everyone for themselves. And this is a brutal world where If your main interaction is baking, that's a different narrative context. You might be baking in the zombie apocalypse, that could be interesting. So, I think that, yes, I think the mechanics can tell us because play is often more congruent with the character is more meaningful when it's congruent with the character and with the story and with the environment. So we're always trying to balance what's fun to do in the game, what the character would believably do. Which is why a lot of these soldier war rebellion, high conflict stories justify a lot of common gameplay mechanics, like combat or stealth. And so I think that can be a trap. But there are people in the industry who speak quite, you know, actively on this and sort of say, there are other mechanics too, that a lot of people enjoy, like, growing things or looking after things or baking or catching fish or picking apples or things that are funnily enough, you know, don't seem quite racy to start off with, but that make for really compelling games.
Phil 41:10
Recently, we talked to Nick Garonne, who's the creative director of spirit fair over at Thunder Lotus games, I think he talked a lot about what you're just getting out of this friction between like making a game that doesn't have like violence as the main mechanic. And, you know, as you were saying, with something like Florence, the importance of having mundanity or like kind of boring kind of gameplay in order to to evoke those emotional, those emotional moments and something you know, Ben and I were talking about, about spirit fare off air and the kind of the friction of like that kind of gameplay, like how do you make something that's kind of like repetitive or, like, quote, unquote, boring, like, fun still for the player? Or how do you how do you square that, and I think, in the same token, thinking about control, something I was thinking about, as I was playing through is, you know, there is, you know, there are cutscenes that are like, narrative moments that are going to push the player through. But a lot of this, the story unfolds in the environment, through found objects and in player interaction. And the oldest house and I was just thinking, coming from a, a creative writing background, I'm used to seeing kind of these found object things and, you know, like collage essays or, you know, kind of segmented, segmented works, and there's a friction to it, I feel that I feel some players must have had of like, hey, like, I'm playing this game. And there's all these different like objects, and enough to read all these things, and to undercover uncover the mystery. And I'd love to just hear a bit if you can talk about it, like, what are those conversations like? Like navigating? How do we tell this story that kind of I don't think control could have existed in a super linear fashion? So like, how can we tell that kind of story? Despite that friction that might exist with with those kinds of mechanics?
Brooke Maggs 43:18
That's a really good question, we had a lot to do in that game to talk about the world. It's a brand new world that we were introducing the players to. And the main missions cover a lot of the key things, so we made sure that a lot of what you really needed to know about the world was in the main missions, which are usually delivered through cutscenes, or through these video overlays of other characters speaking to Jesse, or dialogue interactions with characters. And you could, for example, in those sections, choose to ask them more about the world or choose to continue. One of the things that game director really emphasized was not sort of giving players as much choice as we could, in that, you know, tool point, we need them to experience some of the story in order for all of this to make sense. With the narrative objects, they were really lucky. That control is set in a parent natural FBI basically, it's a government building, that is called the oldest house and the oldest house is a place of power and in control, places of power. Often kind of imbued in a way with with para natural power. They're strange things. So we had a really great opportunity to combine mundane office culture, with being in an agency that's all about studying and researching the power natural inside of a strange shifting building, so we, I remember the workshops, specifically, they're quite long ones, where the narrative team sat down. And we made a spreadsheet. That was all of the topics that come up in the world that we wanted to explain in some detail. And then we down the other side listed all of the ways that we could talk about those topics. For example, memos passed between people in the office, official government letterhead, Bureau communications, research, reports, I suppose, whiteboards that we have around the offices, that's quite a remedy tradition that pops up in Quantum Break as well. There's a lot of things on whiteboards if you want to pay attention, they can sort of add some parts of the story. And then we mapped out, of course, what's covered by a Dr. Darling video. And Dr. Darling is head researcher at the FBC. And he creates these videos to inform the people in the FBC about certain key parts of the world, he does one on places of power, and he does one on objects of power, and the motels specifically. And we use those as a way to storytel as well and inform the player of what's going on and what these things are. But also to create that weird feeling of this happy. Strange government communication, style communication on top of, you know, you fighting a para natural threat in the world. So we had to, we covered all of those off, but we also knew that they couldn't be too long and clay, our writer, was very clear about trying to keep them succinct. It was mainly from a pragmatic UI point of view, because we sort of had that one sheet of paper on the screen that you could see it. And if we wrote anything too long localization makes the text too long, say in German, or other languages. But also just from a purely player sanity, point of view of let's not leave, you know, encyclopedias worth of information in the world, let's give them some things that that you would ordinarily find in an office. So what I'm saying is where we're lucky that that's contextualized. So we have a lot of narrative kind of debris that we can work with that you would conceivably find, we were very clear not to put important documents or things that
like to hidden. So we created a priority section of this spreadsheet that said, if this thing hasn't really been described in too much detail than we would like level designers, if they would kindly leave them in areas where players are more likely to pick them up. And then ones that are a bit more abstract and a bit for the keen player. They are more hidden. So there's a method to the way that they're distributed as well. In fact, some of the first collectibles in the game are very specific and purposeful, to lead the player slowly in and go, This place isn't right. Like why are we allowed to take smartphones into this building and what's going on? Keeping track of that was difficult. But we also did know or have to realize that not all players are going to pick those up and read them. So there that's something that you, you kind of acknowledge as as a narrative, person in games, that not everyone is going to really enjoy those things. People come to games for different reasons. And some people just don't come to pick up things and read them. Other people really do. But we also created asset lists, and spoke to the environment art department about what we could do to leave things around. But it also worked the other way where the environment or level designers would say, I want to put this thing in the world. And I think it'd be really cool. What do you think about that? And we're like, well, we don't have heaps of time to explain it in the main story, we might be able to mention it, but let's make a collectible about it and make it really obvious in that area. So if people are curious about what this area is, then they can pick up a document and read more. So sometimes they will pitch to us. And that's actually really, really fun too. So some of them were coming in fast and hot and clay were like I don't care. He's like okay, there's a there's a rock. Why is there a rock let's make something up and he would write something really cool. I think I think some of Have the his clever writing is in those documents and really gives them a lot of personality. And then, but some of them trigger side missions as well. So it is to the players benefit to explore. Especially because, and not side missions that give you abilities I should emphasize because I think that's a bit rough. But um, some of the side missions give you abilities but and so it does pay to explore in this game. I think I've thought of, I feel like I've answered your question well, but please feel free to ask more. If I haven't touched on everything.
Phil 50:41
I was just gonna say it's funny listening to you, because it's, I'm having like this epiphany of like, the kind of player that I am in some ways where, for instance, like you know, let's say that you're talking to an NPC, I'm and they give you the the main dialog, and then there's the options that's like, you know, learn more about whatever. I'm definitely not a player who's ever clicking the learn more about, about like more. But then for instance, I love reading the little documents found in the world. So it's interesting how that how that works out.
Brooke Maggs 51:14
What maybe because it's a bit more active on your path, because you're seeking out the information instead of going click Tell me more. And then, but I mean, other people really like the snappy dialogue, I really I like some of a reaches and Langston dialogue in control, Clay did such a great job with them, they are very funny. A lot of them are very sort of dry. A little bit sarcastic government types. But arratia is really keen and a bit blue collar and stressed and in a tight situation. So his dialogue is is great to stick around for but not not every player will and we know that. So when you try and keep the important stuff, well find it immediately.
Ben 52:01
I'm wondering if you can talk about are there mechanics that interest you more or that you're excited about? And that you wish you saw more of in the industry?
Brooke Maggs 52:19
I really there's I'm sure there is interest not jumping to my mind right now. I I mean, recently I've been playing again, inside, which is a nother it's very in the vein of the gardens between or vice versa. I think a lot of the interesting puzzle mechanics in their a great in the way that it teaches you them is very clever. But I also appreciate that that's very hard to do. I guess what I'm saying is I like games that. So don't sort of interrupt things with with many, many tutorials at the start. And I think I mean, obviously everything in context. And if there's a reason, of course, we have tutorials and control. And I think trusting that players will work things out is good. But also, I do get frustrated if I don't kind of know what to do if the game hasn't sold me my role in the game and why I'm going to do these things, especially if it's a lot of mundane tasks, they're not my favorite thing. So I need to be sold on the aspirational idea of why I will be doing these things a lot. And I mean, some games I've been looking at to recently I've been really enjoying Subnautica Subnautica is very, it just lets you go. And then you've got to figure out how to you got to look through your PDA and figuring out what blueprints you need to build things and stay alive and what gives you water and what keeps you food. That's really clever. I also really enjoy. Now I'm sort of just listing mechanics I enjoy now as a way of answering this question. And I guess that I would like to see more of in different aspects. I really enjoy Hades and their cyclical narrative where I was talking to Greg about it, the writer and I said I'm genuinely happy to die in this game because it makes me stronger. And I learn more about characters in the world. And like I said, the guys have done a great job where dying is a mechanic, you know, dying is part of just part of it, and you're the god of the underworld or one of them. So that's fine. But your, you know, determination to get out is really interesting. But then I also find it interesting that you can kind of build things back in your base as well. So you're sort of a bit connected to going back which away you're supposed to be running away from it. But but I thought that was very clever. So you know, not feeling punished, but instead having that be part of the, the narrative and the design is really fun. And again, that was about context. It was about finding a narrative that gives context to a roguelike.
Phil 55:19
Yeah, we had talked to Greg, maybe a month or two ago, and yeah, and he, I think I said the exact same thing, you said that it was kind of like a delightful experience to die, and Hades because I got to, like, learn more about the story. And, you know, something that I've just been really ruminating on a lot lately. And maybe it's because, like, I'm a writer, so I'm, I'm like, Oh, the story is, like, the most important part or something. But, you know, Greg basically had said that narrative isn't necessary in games, and that it's kind of like a tool in the toolbox of a designer to, to tell the story, or I think you're saying it, like, it's kind of like, it can just give the context if that's the only thing that needs to serve. And I find that I know, it's it's like really fascinating, I think, especially when I was thinking about Hades because it seemed so paramount, like the narrative itself out even though the game would exist otherwise. And I guess I'm just curious if you could answer this question to of like, what, how you view narrative? Or like, what is the role of narrative? And games?
Brooke Maggs 56:34
Well, I mean, I, it really does depend on the game. I think it varies, or the very least like I said, it's context. And it is very humbling as a writer from other mediums to realize that and maybe that's, yeah, it is. But genuinely, that's what when I was freelancing, and even on projects now that I would ask, what, what do we want the purpose of the narrative to be? Because I don't mind if it's just context, but let's just be clear that it's context. Like we're not necessarily for other freelance projects, for example, I would say we don't need to tell a big sweeping three act story, like we can have your this, you're doing that? Why are you doing it? Because this? And so narrative is about emotion and connection to the mechanics and the world and the characters? And I think I mean, I do agree with Greg, I think that there are games that are just fine without story. And they're often strange things that happen in games that have no explanation. And actually, we're all happy for not to be explained, like, that's fine. And it can actually be a bit of a fault. Especially I've noticed, sometimes in my work, I really want to provide explanations for things. And sometimes I realized that there really, perhaps doesn't need to be one, for example, the gardens between do we have to tell the player who they are? Maybe not. So it's knowing where to leave gaps as well in the story. So I think the purpose of narrative is to an often, because it's the most flexible, is to provide that emotional connection to what you're doing and why you want to keep doing it. And the better ones, also, I think, create a sense of curiosity, or something that makes you want to keep playing and keep seeing what's happening. And that's what narrative does in Hades too. Because it's, it creates a sense of curiosity, like I want to, I want to know more about what's going on with, you know, this guard, or I want to see if I can do that. But there is also very clearly game mechanics under that game. You know, it's very structured in a way and sometimes we can explain those, you know, perks or buffs that you get or different types of weapons on where do they come from, and sometimes we don't need to I think Dark Souls was a another good example of not really giving you a sweeping narrative, but more putting you in a world and letting you sort of work it out. And I think people I don't think people don't mind that at all. Because funnily enough, in the absence of narrative in games, narrative about games or speculation on the narrative, especially more and more with Twitch and streaming and our connectedness, we like to speculate together about a game if it's been particularly vague. Then we might go online and go What was that ending Abell What's this or I found a little note in Dark Souls, like how many other people found this note on Reddit, and let's talk about it. So, I mean, I I personally like to play games that have some sort of compelling setup or context at least But also, I have a lot of fun playing full guys. And there's not heaps of narrative in that everything's just ridiculously cute. That's enough. So I think the ultimate purpose of games is about the mechanics and the interaction. And and that interaction with rules is essentially what a game is. And then how you contextualize them can be with narrative.
Ben 1:00:27
Yeah, maybe maybe Lastly, and this is our this is our, our always question, which is, you know, can you maybe put us in a moment, from your life, your maybe your, your personal the gardens between level four, when you got involved or felt like you, you know, get this kind of narrative design work was was the job for you or something that you're really interested in? And things maybe clicked?
Brooke Maggs 1:00:56
Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, honestly, I think it's clicked over time. But when I started with the voxel agents, I was hired as a writer and on the basis of my writing. But then it became clear that we're not having text or speech in this game, but there was still a lot of story work to do. And I was at a point, and at the time, Narrative Designer wasn't popular title, or much of a thing. And I kind of came to it and went, Look, everyone, I've really just tried to write a script for this game that no one wants to have a bar of it. And in fact, that's not the way that it's going. It's very humbling as, as you can imagine. But then I realized that more and more, of course, that story in games isn't just about the writing. And I actually really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed talking about the visual storytelling. And I realized that I had a lot of other skills that were not just in writing a good turn of phrase. But a lot of those skills were in communication, and in conveying ideas, and in asking people nuanced questions about the story, like, what is the purpose of story in this game? You know, you don't have to tell a big story, like, do you want to tell a story at all? Like, and that's a question to be weird question to ask as a narrative person, but it's, I really liked the design aspect of my job. And more and more as I've gone along, especially at remedy, I learned a lot about the design aspect, because in a larger team, people really need to know how people are going to interact with the story. For example, when they pick up those narrative objects, how does that work? You know, do they pick it up? Can they listen to the audio log right away? Do they have to go into the menu to listen to it. And when I realized that, there was a lot more to it, I continue with my own writing, I write a lot of fiction. But a lot of what I do at work is writing designs and writing about the world that is for the team to read, and for them to apply. And also world build sort of on the fly in a way but also laying foundations, and being a part of the team. So I get to speak to costume designers and character artists and environment artists and concept artists, who all really do do story. But they do it from their perspective. And I really enjoy that I really enjoyed when a character artist would say, I want to know more about this character, like, here's how I would do the shape language. And I'm like, Yes, tell me about more about shape language, and characters and silhouettes and all these other parts of storytelling. So the point of this is to say that I really enjoy the multidisciplinary storytelling aspect of my job. And that's not to say writers don't get to do that as well. But I really do enjoy it and sort of have hit my stride doing that, I think, and talking about narrative design, I think also helps people realize that there's a lot more story design work that goes on behind games, especially as well. So not a specific moment, but a realization that came to me over time. That's really helped me hit my stride now, I think.
Phil 1:04:27
Thank you for that. No, I think that my final kind of question is I'm always interested. The games industry is young enough that I think everybody who's kind of especially at a senior role or at a higher up role, kind of has a not a straight line trajectory to get where to where they are, and I'm just curious like that growing up, or are you somebody who was thinking like one day I wanted to work and then in games are like, Where were you, as you know, and young Brooke? And then how did you get to where you are now?
Brooke Maggs 1:05:10
Oh, my goodness, well, yes, when I was younger, that is what I wanted to do. I remember having the Super Nintendo and doing playing Mario Paint with mouse with my sister, we would sit on the floor. And I would create sprites, which I guess should have indicated that I liked storytelling from a multidisciplinary perspective, because I made sprites of little characters, and then little sort of ability, you know, pictures that they had. And then I would tell her a story about these characters, and put them on the screen and then wipe them off and draw a background and put them on the screen again, I would just talk to her and make up a story about what was going on, there was probably something to do with Rainbow Brite, or something that we were interested in at the time. And then I'll jump to another image where when I was packing up my life in Australia and going through sort of old boxes of things, I was looking through diaries that I'd kept. And I found a page that said something like, and one day I would really like to write for games, or something like that, I nearly burst into tears, because I wish I could kind of go back to young Brook and go, and one day, you'll move to Finland, and you will make games. So that was pretty incredible. In terms of more practical things I've always wanted to write. And I've always written fiction of my own, and sort of done a little bit of roleplay tabletop writing and things like that. And then when I finished university was a multimedia degree, I really enjoyed the design and narrative subjects killed. The Creative Writing subjects was grateful for the programming subjects, though those just skimmed through, let's say, and then I wanted to do web design. But I realized I hated it when I did some work placement. So I went back to school and did creative writing. But I also got a job teaching at Swinburne who have a quite a big game studies area. And I ended up just sort of talking to other lecturers and saying, Yeah, I like games I do writing. And they were like, do you want to teach some of our game subjects, we need a teacher and I was like, Sure. So I was reading a lot of game studies theory about games, loving that, working on my creative writing. I did a diploma in that. And essentially taught for six or seven years project management, user experience design, game studies, looking back on all of that, that prepared me quite well to be a good communicator. And also to study it was like a second degree teaching as well, because I didn't do a theoretical degree. So I was reading a lot of papers on post modernism and feminism and applying, you know, Marx's theory to Grand Theft Auto and things like that, which was super interesting. And then I got a job at the voxel agents through they knew someone at Swinburne who recommended me I sent writing to them, got to know people at the arcade, which was a it's a building in Melbourne full of game developers, small studios. And so we all worked there. And in the kitchen, around the coffee machine over just Hello, I'm Brooke I do writing and data data, and I'm freelance so. And then sometimes that would turn into things. And that turned into paperback and Florence, for example. And I applied for the women in games grant, then encouraged by other women in the industry. And a number of us won the grant to advance our career. And I proposed to use my money to go to studios overseas, who have much bigger narrative games than we do in Australia. So I I had to organize all of that myself. I had to form connections with the studios and things which was excellent. It kind of got me out of my shell a little bit. And fortunately, some very lovely people at remedy said yes, come and lovely people at Double Fine said yes, come so I went to remedy first and I spent four weeks in
the middle of February, which was very, very, very cold. Like, you know, a complete newbie to the winter I brought every sort of warm thing possible and went to the office and got to see what they were working on which was controlled. And I thought God I have to do this somehow I have to work on this game. So I was working as hard as So I could, and then they did really appreciate my work and passion and offered me a job. And I tentatively freaked out a little bit, and then said, yes. But I have to finish my grant, sort of required to spend that money, which is kind of cool. So I went to the States and worked at Double Fine, which was so much fun. And I learned a lot from them, came home, packed up my life, move to Finland, and then worked on control for the last from the middle of development, let's say to the end, and released that. And here I am. And it's been in that all sounds very linear. But believe me, it wasn't there were a lot of periods of really trying to make things work, for example, I suddenly transitioned from, you know, teaching full time to also freelancing, then freelancing, starting my own company, with a friend, which unfortunately didn't work out for us, and we closed it. So there was a lot of moving around and then finding my way in, but I have to say, I think part of it is having writing to show people. It was networking, and just talking to people about what I genuinely like, and want to do. It was other women who said you should apply for this grant, do it. You it was the people, for example, at the voxel agents who wrote me very convincing letters for the grant, and all of that, so I think, yeah, it was it was definitely not a linear path to games. But I'm very glad to be here.
Phil 1:11:50
Well, thanks so much for talking with us today. Is there anything that you know, we haven't asked you that we that you think we should?
Brooke Maggs 1:12:01
I don't think so. I mean, to be honest, I've had such a good time. I feel like I feel like I could talk to you guys forever about this stuff. Because you've asked some really good questions that I'm really keen to unpack. This has been great. Thank you very much. I really appreciate the chance to talk about my process and my job and the games that I've been a part of. So thank you.
Ben 1:12:30
Thank you. Thank you. It was it was great talking to you. Yeah, thank you.
Phil 1:12:47
Well, that was our conversation with Brooke mags about everything related to narrative design. I think that she does such a wonderful job of talking through the headspace of a designer in games, especially in relation to narrative and how it is fundamentally different from just strictly you know, writing games, which is something that at least you know, when I was coming into the conversation. That's essentially how I understood it.
Ben 1:13:15
Yeah, you know, I think this was my first time understanding. Dare I say it fill the The L Word?
Phil 1:13:21
What's the L word?
Ben 1:13:22
Ludo narrative
Phil 1:13:23
Oh,
Ben 1:13:24
Ludo narrative baby. After this guest I'm gonna go read some BioShock crit maybe it makes sense now
Phil 1:13:30
we're bringing up some decade old games created over here.
Ben 1:13:36
Wow. You know maybe people made some points about the the Uncharted games I don't know.
Phil 1:13:41
That some some intertextuality cut for our academics in the room.
Ben 1:13:48
That's a reference for literally a person
Phil 1:13:53
Yeah, she does a good job of kind of breaking down without I don't even think she mentions the narrative dissonance but she does either. She does she implicit, she implicitly gets at you know, some of the friction that's involved of like, making a game fun and, and, and making interesting gameplay mechanics while also you know, telling a story. I like tying the the gameplay and the story together thematically. And so like
Ben 1:14:20
that. Yeah. And it's like, I think it's just like such an interesting way of, of coming at art. That is, it feels like it is almost like inherently academic. I don't know, like that. It's like, you know, so many narratives. It's like, how do you tell a story? And Brooke, on a certain level is like, how do you tell a story and then how do you make game mechanics that reinforce the story that's being told and so it's like, there's something it's like from the drop there's something kind of meta that has to happen there. That's too certainly too big brain for me. I'm I'm way too smooth brains for narrative design. Thank you.
Phil 1:14:58
Yeah, I mean, it sounds stupid since The it's literally in the job title like design. But for me, I never really thought of like a narrative designer as being like a designer, I just assumed, like, there are a writer who like, you know, helps the story get made. But I mean, I think Brooke really showcases that it, I would almost say it's more so about the design aspect of it. How do you formulate a player experience in relation to narrative that, that makes sense is enjoyable, is interesting. And bolsters and allows the story didn't even happen, right?
Ben 1:15:38
Yeah, like writing two dimensional chess, Brooke mags, seven dimensional chess. I'm just saying, James Joyce. It's on baby.
Phil 1:15:48
James Joyce. They were doing like checkers. And narrative design is like that weird game and Star Wars, where it's like the little goobers who are on that thing. You know, like, I don't even know what the rules are.
But that's that's all to say that we really, we really loved our conversation with Brooke mags. She has such interesting perspective on game design, and a really interesting, you know, journey into game design, which is worth hearing. Brooke does a lot of, you know, panels, keynotes presentations, and things like that in relation to game design. So she's a really good person to look up in terms of understanding more like, what does it even mean, to design narratives for games? And how does that happen?
Ben 1:16:45
Yeah. And I feel like we shouldn't say, you know, we, we watched a couple of her talks in preparation for this interview. And, you know, for those interested, I think we can just drop those on Twitter or something. So that like, if you're interested in knowing more and kind of seeing her give a talk about how this works. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of those out there.
Phil 1:17:05
Yeah. And where can they learn more about bricks where
Ben 1:17:09
they can find out more about Brookes work at Brooke mags? That's ma GG s.com. They can also follow her on Twitter at Brooke underscore mags.
Phil 1:17:22
Yeah, and if you all just kind of want a good teaser into what her work is like or, again, if you're not really a gamer, who has like a game console, I think Florence which is available on the iPhone or in the gardens between that's on iPhone two I think
Ben 1:17:40
I want to say it is Hold on let me fact check right now.
Phil 1:17:43
Those are both really good kind of gateways. Florence, I want to say is a couple bucks on the iPhone, and very much worth your time. It's also really cute. Really great music and sound design. It's gonna make you sad.
Ben 1:17:58
It's gonna make you sad though. It's gonna make you sad, but who doesn't love that? Yeah, garden gardens between is also on on the on the App Store so you can find so
Phil 1:18:07
check those out control is available like basically everywhere PC, switch, even Xbox ps4, PS five. And where can they find you, Ben?
Ben 1:18:20
Phil, they can find me at sad underscore, radio underscore lad. You can follow origin story at origin story underscore, you can also find us at origin story dot show, Phillip, where can they find you?
Phil 1:18:32
They can find me on Twitter at 3d Cisco. And as always, we want to thank Ryan Hopper for providing the intro and outro themes for origin story. And we also want to thank melody Hirsch, who provided the awesome cover art and website design that you see every time you boot the show up.
Ben 1:18:53
All right. I mean, that's all I got. If you have any kind of thoughts or comments. Give us an email at V origin story pod@gmail.com. We're taking tips we're taking, you know, advice on who you might want to hear from next. Yeah, hit us up.
Phil 1:19:09
And as always, leave those reviews on Apple podcasts. They help us out. We don't need to beat a dead horse but you know, they're always good. So love to hear from y'all. And you can catch us again here next week. Thursday 5am Pacific 8am. Eastern for another conversation with an awesome creator.
Ben 1:19:33
Be there or be square
