Steve Pardo (Signs of the Sojourner) on the Sounds of Home
Episode Description
Steve Pardo is a composer and interactive audio designer in the video game industry. He’s the co-founder of audio production house SkewSound, a game developer at The Pardo Brothers, and an audio director at Authentic Artists.
Pardo has a background in jazz, and his professional career began at legendary music-game studio Harmonix Music Systems where he led the audio team for games such as Rock Band VR, Dance Central, and Super Beat Sports.
In addition to collaborating on some of the world’s most recognizable music gaming titles, he’s also composed a range of other interactive soundtracks such as Signs of the Sojourner, Gigantic, Grim Dawn, and Fantasia: Music Evolved. Outside of games, he’s scored music for networks such as Netflix, Adult Swim, and IFC.
We spoke with Steve about how he designs the sound of home in his music.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
Learn more about Signs of the Sojourner here.
Explore more of Steve Pardo's work on his website.
Check out Phil's essay on Signs of the Sojourner here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:24
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, a podcast that interviews creators about where they came from to see how they got here. My name is Phil, and I'm with my partner in crime. It's Ben Thorpe. And today, we're interviewing Steve Pardo, the composer of this great little indie game by echo dogs games called Signs of the sojourner.
Ben 0:49
Yeah, it was a really good conversation. You know, I think he got into the idea of, of music, really adding a layer to games and being able to, like use music, to understand the history of a place. And to help kind of, I guess, tease out the emotional through line of like the narrative of a game.
Phil 1:11
Yeah, it was, it was interesting talking to Steve. Because I think one of the things I loved about science was the music, it was kind of the one, the one thing that really, if I could choose one thing that really stuck with me, after I finished the game, it was that. And I guess, to kind of circle back signs of the sojourner. It's a game like a road trip game, you play as a character who's from a small town, and your mother has passed away, and she kind of ran the general store of this town called Bartow, where you're from and you've never left before. And more or less, the game kind of takes your protagonist on this caravan across all these different towns with all their different kinds of cultures and ideologies and things like that. And it packages all that within this deck building card, almost like card battle or game where you where the the game is conversation itself,
Ben 2:15
right and, and it's like the the different cards that you have, will vary based on the locations you're going to. And so you'll have some like pretty basic shapes to start out with. Like when you're in your starting small town, it's like a circle and a triangle, I think, or it's just like a series of triangles. And so those conversations with your kind of close friends and with your family are really easy to start that game off with. But each location you go to, you have to start switching out your cards. And so as you go, it's making it harder and harder to kind of have easy conversations where everybody kind of has the same, like basic framework of cards to work with. And so you start, I think, basically like failing conversations all the time. And it feels kind of uncomfortable, like it's kind of a bummer. You'll be having conversations with people and they get frustrated, because they're like, Oh, you're not, you don't understand what I'm saying you don't understand what I'm trying to say to you. And so you'll just like start kind of failing, a series of conversations. And I think, Phil, we should say you wrote a piece about this. But one of the things that stands out about it that you kind of highlight is that as you come home, you then have a completely different kind of deck of conversation cards. And the conversations with your hometown, and your friends are now also much much harder, and it kind of punches you in the gut.
Phil 3:42
Yeah, I think, you know, Ben and I have lived a bunch of different places over our lives. And I and a theme or idea that often times comes up between us is this idea of like going back home, you know, seeing people that we used to know or that we you know, that we don't talk to as much anymore and kind of the struggles of like finding those connection points and those those points of relation. And sometimes it's really easy to kind of fall back into those personas that we once had. And sometimes it's harder and I think that this game does a really good job of of emulating that idea with with human connection and conversation through this really fun and vibrant. Not only gameplay mechanic with the cars, but also the world itself, like the art direction is really fun and colorful and kind of water colored. And it's incredibly diverse. That was another thing about the game that right off the bat. I was really pleased by it was just like a very diverse cast of characters from all different types of walks of life. And I was able to comment on all types of, you know, social issues and a really unique and interesting way and I think something that Steve A gets into in our interview is this idea of mixing the familiar with the alien. And the music. And I think that that also permeates the story and the gameplay of finding these kinds of things that you can relate to and then kind of kind of spinning them or morphing them a bit. So yeah, really excited to, to talk about this game and for you all to hear about Steve's process, not only in making the music for this game, but kind of this great trajectory that he had for his career, starting way back at harmonics, where he was working on things like rock band to starting his own music studio, where he's producing games with his friends space, or producing music with his friends, basically. So
Ben 5:50
yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that at the top. I think one of the things that I've realized kind of post playing the game and obviously we listened to this, the album of this game several times. And that kind of prep for this interview is just like, how much of the atmosphere of the game I think you I've realized is from his design, and his music design, and the way he was thinking about, you know, what a piece of music might say about a place. And we kept coming back to this idea about a series of like home themes, or town themes that he created for this game. So yeah, it's a really cool interview.
Phil 6:27
Well, let's not keep them waiting.
Ben 6:29
Let's get in there.
Phil 6:30
You're about to hear our interview with Steve Pardo on signs of the sojourner roll the clip.
Steve Pardo is a composer and interactive audio designer in the video game industry. He's the co founder of audio production how askew sound a game developer at the Pardo brothers, and an audio director at authentic artists. Pardo has a background in jazz and his professional career began at legendary music game studio harmonics music systems, where he led the audio team for games such as Rock Band VR, dance, Central, and super beat sports. In addition to collaborating on some of the world's most recognizable music gaming titles, he's also composed a range of other interactive soundtracks, such as signs of the sojourner gigantic, Grim Dawn and Fantasia music evolved outside of games. He's scored music for networks, such as Netflix, Adult Swim, and IFC. Thanks for joining us, Steve.
Steve Pardo 7:39
Pleasure being here.
Phil 7:41
Yeah. So we were really inspired to talk to you today just about signs of the sojourner. And then from there, kind of jump into your career, you have a vast background, it seems. And we'll get into into all that. So how about we start with signs? And I think to start us off, what are what kind of drew you to the project? What were your kind of initial was like your initial relationship to the project and how you got into it?
Steve Pardo 8:09
Sure. Well, yeah, thanks again, for inviting me on the show. It's a pleasure getting to talk to you guys and about my background and this game in particular. But the sojourner project signs of the sojourner with echo dog games, was they reached out to us so so when I say us, I'm talking about SKU sound, the company that we that I co founded with some good friends of mine from the harmonics days. Usually, when we are connected to a team, it's either because one of us has had a previous relationship or a previous professional, you know, we work together on either in a game context or film context or music context. Or we're just friends and you know, working on something collaborative together. But in this case, we did not have any sort of connection to the echo dog folk, they approached us simply because they heard our work. They they, they did their research and listen to the music that I've written and some of the sounds we've done in previous games. So it was kind of a unique, you know, starting off point where we were trying to get to know them, and they were trying to get to know us. But for me, especially I saw there when they when they approached us, they shared the website and materials. And I immediately fell in love with the project. And so even though I was sort of not really knowing you know much about who they who they were what the team was all about, I was like I have to work on this game. I have to make music for this world. I'm the creative creatively. This is feeding me this is their I'm inspired. So you know at that point, it was like I was trying to prove to them that I should work on I should be the one to compose his music you know, it was like that kind of like really healthy. The collaborative nature there was already, you know, kind of coming together even before we got signed. So it went pretty quickly because Diyala, the lead designer there, shared some material with me, just so I, this is something I do with every project that that I get signed on to is that, I'll ask for references and we'll kind of get to know their musical tastes. Because I feel like that's really important. Like if I if they have an idea of what the music should sound like, great, and they'll share their references for the world and for the characters. But if they don't have that, in that, which was the case here, just like hey, what music do you like? What? Like, what's what are you listening to on the weekends or while you're cooking dinner? What aren't you listening to? What should this absolutely not sound like? And so just getting that information so that I know what to you know where to start, or we're making sure not to go like if definitely if you're not into metal, I won't write you anything that has shredding guitars, or, you know, if you're if you're like, if you hate country music, I won't use pedal stealers are via you know, fiddle violin. But in this case, like we submit eye to eye with the kind of music that both they liked. And we're seeing for this game, small groups, both from jazz from indie, rock, folk country, and a little bit of classical music they shared with me some music from Darren Korb, you know, one of the most well known game composers out there, he did the soundtracks for Bastion, more recently Hades super well known composer and who I love his music to death. So that as being a reference was inspiring as well. Andrew bird was an inspiration, I brought some my own inspirations like Bill Frizelle. Almost Zangara, who is a she's from Mali, you know, one of the most just charismatic and well known African singers. And so bringing that, like, culturally into this game, I thought was, you know, would be really cool. But, you know, and there were a few other inspirations that I threw at them kind of like seeing if we were on the same page. And it was like, the most easy thing to do the most like, kind of, you know, just like flowing creative back and forth. So much so that by the end of that conversation, I honestly was like, Oh, they're asking me to make an album of music that I would have wanted to make anyway, basically, like, they just want me to make music and not trying to, like make it for a product outside of something that I already kind of like enjoy, you know,
that I would want to make something on my own free time. So it was like, a dream project, to be perfectly honest. And I still feel that way. Like, I got to work on my dream project, making this album, you know, seemingly for myself, but also for this game that has created a creative vision that I wholeheartedly believe in.
Ben 13:28
I want to jump in there, because I think you're almost getting at what are the things that we were talking about, which is, it seems like it's a game that has these really rich themes around kind of communication, and the idea of kind of hometown and how leaving your home can make it harder to communicate with the people from that hometown? Once you get back. And so I'm wondering kind of how something that is kind of so thematically rich, did they tell you or do they give you a sense of here's what we're trying to here's what's part of our creative vision? And will you write to that? And how do you I guess, interweave those themes into the music that you're writing?
Steve Pardo 14:07
That's a good, great question. There was, at first, uh, you know them. It's okay, you guys know this. It's a really unique game. There's not very many games that are, I mean, it's a card game. It's a narrative game. It's an RPG light kind of thing. It has missions, but it's also none of those things. It's, it's telling a narrative or conveying a like a truth about human nature through this card game, right that you're playing and and and it changes as the narrative goes and as you venture out into the into the unknown, and then even as you come back home, like the the card game itself is communication. And but it's, it's all subtle. It's like those beautiful kind of art. So us figuring that out took a long time. That's like me even just saying that over the microphone to you guys is like I don't I'm not fully even conveying what that means, right? It's kind of an intangible thing. And no article that I've read, by the way is actually like nailing this concept. It's a It's all very subtle, right? So but you know, as the, as a content creator, I'm making music for this product. I kept asking them questions over and over again, like, okay, so is it is it important that we have interactive music for this narrative beat or whenever this card is played, should we like do something with the music and after a while, we actually were pitching that, like, hey, we can score, every time there's a new a new character, and every time they go into are those a new act in the in the, in the sequence of events, or once this thing happens, we can change the music dramatically. And we actually pitch that and put it in the game a few times. But it didn't really need to be there. And if anything, it took away from the experience as a whole. Because the card game itself, the game itself, is doing so much of the heavy lifting in that regards, that like just letting the player have kind of be immersed in that gameplay, it was enough to like, tell, to for that message to get through in our opinion. And so therefore the the music, just all it needed to do was be music was the background music and kind of tell the story of the location that you're in and the characters that you're interacting with. But that took a long time for us to get there. So, you know, what's great, though, is that initially, the you know, I was inspired by the art, I was inspired by the simplicity of the game. And just one I immediately just like I was attracted to that. So I just started writing music. And so while we were sort of figuring out the interactive system, I was still actually doing the work of writing the town, because every every town kind of has its own theme, right. It's basically just an album of town themes, or a soundtrack of town themes. So I just did that. I just wrote all these town themes, and they got into the game. And then once we're by that time, I had sort of understood, this gameplay is intense. And the interactive, the interactivity of the music doesn't need to be, as you know, like, evolving as I thought it happened, there are still certainly interactive elements to the soundtrack. But for the most part, it's, it's just kind of background music. It's essentially just town themes. And I feel great about that, you
Phil 17:49
know, yeah, just to bounce off that this idea of an album of, of town themes. Like something that, that I love when I'm listening to like game soundtracks or playing a game is like, those home, those home themes are like going to a new town and hearing, like, hearing that kind of sound as a way to communicate what the place is like. And I'm somebody who isn't a musician, I'm just so fascinated by how you even kind of conceptualize, like, the sound of a place, right? Because, musically, because it's not something that's like natural, like in our, in our real world, right? And I'm curious for, for this game, thinking about those those talent themes? Like what was that process? Like? Was it like, they gave you some kind of, you know, brief, that's, that's like Bartow is, is XY and Z or was it kind of more flexible,
Steve Pardo 18:47
it was kind of a little bit of both. So they gave me a story brief and which laid out every single location, all of the characters in each location and a little bit of backstory into how that town came to be and the conflict that might be going through. And its relationship to the player, the main the main character in the game. So every, you know, I had a starting place just through that one document, right? And I could I could say, okay, so Anca is like a thriving rich city with a huge you know, Metropolis thriving metropolis and economy. And it has a little bit of culture in this way, in that way. And there's this character here so I can write something. It feels very rhythmic. Very almost like a you know, big band jazz kind of aesthetic or like, you know, I was thinking very Gershwin while you know, like kind of up tempo and rambunctious but in my own sensibility, obviously.
It's still is a small group and but it's the Just very kind of loud and lots of drums. But, you know, and similarly, like Bartow is your hometown, and should feel very comfortable to the player, because it's where they grew up. And it's where your mother had her shop and your best friend is there.
But as far as like, musically, there was nothing, right? I saw I was continually whenever I started a new track, asking questions to the developer. So like, what is the? Sorry? Like? Is there any conflict that would have that the player would themselves have to be engaging with here? Is there any sadness about this? About this location? I see that it's kind of desolate, it's out in, you know, the corner of the of the of the, of the world, the world map? Is there. Any technology that's unique to this area is there I see this this main character here in this and you know, in this world, there's this main character who you're mainly focusing with, what's their story like, are what's their role in the town, trying to get as much information as I could about that? Because seeing it as a whole, and this is something that that, you know, we came up with kind of relatively early on before I started, like sketching every song. Well, actually, sorry, let me let me go back just a little bit. At the very beginning of the game, we were trying to figure out and I scored this trailer, that was like the very first piece of music that I played out there that ended up becoming the main theme of the of the game.
But I use that trailer, trying to figure out the core instrumentation of the game, which as you guys probably know, is mostly just acoustic instruments. It's the stuff in my room, right? It's like this drum set. It's this guitar, it's all these woodwinds because it's like my album. So it's just all of these instruments that I own and play. But how synthetic versus how acoustic should this soundtrack be. And there was a little bit of tension, like one member of the team was like, I thought this was gonna be an electronic music album, right. And so what I wrote was so acoustic based, that it kind of threw them off. So there was a little bit of debate and we came to the agreement that no, this world should feel, at least at the beginning, should feel very comfortable, feel very at home with sounds that feel very recognizable. So we stuck with this acoustic kind of folk ish palette, but then really liked the idea of bringing in unique synthetic instruments. That one's what vary one to one with the narrative and with the technology being utilized at each given location. So as the player goes out, it starts to feel a little bit more alien starts to feel a bit more technological. You know, bringing in kind of more unique and less comfortable sounds, you know, as as you are literally going farther away from home and be being having to wrestle with, you know, new cultures and new technology and more conflict.
Ben 23:45
Yeah, I think you're kind of you're kind of touching on that, to some degree, it's difficult to get at, you know, the artistic vision that someone else has. And then it's a negotiation process to kind of figure out, where's this thing gonna land? And I'm wondering if you can talk about like, what are what are some of the tracks that maybe were more difficult to, to get there to get the kind of song where it needed to be? Yeah,
Steve Pardo 24:11
yeah. One track in particular was very difficult, and actually took more revisions than pretty much anything else in the game. So with old Moray it's kind of this town where it's what used to be a thriving metropolis, and is currently sort of desolated desolate, it's either surrounded by water or immersed in water or it's flooded. There's some story there where water is sort of consuming but the but at the at the time, when it was a metropolis, a thriving metropolis. It was a fishing town and, and thriving. But, so when I was reading the story brief, and when I was talking with the developer First, the mood that I kept getting was kind of like submerge, like, you're like you're underwater, like, I kept feeling like that's where I wanted the player to be. So I kept writing all these dark, kind of like, you know, muted, almost sad kind of tracks. And we went through a few of these revisions they were and they didn't really know how to pin it down as for what they were looking for, and, and so it kind of was a frustrating back and forth. I would throw in some synthetic elements, I would make it like darker and moodier. And then I just like to like, forget it, I'm just gonna write this funk, you know. So it's all I got up my Mogae and I've laid down a drumbeat. And I just kind of went with it, it's got this little of like, funky, happy little synth part in there. And I'm just gonna, I'm not even gonna, like tell them why I did this. I'm just a hey, would How about this
and they were very surprised. And I think the, the, the angle that I had sort of brought back in was, hey, this used to be a thriving metropolis. So it told part of the story of old Moray, that wasn't current, but like signals to the player, hey, this place used to be really cool. You know, a lot of a lot of culture used to be present here in this world. So and I think that's, and also up for one of the things like no other track in this game sort of has that kind of backbeat. And so it's a little bit of a surprise for the player when they stumble across it, because it's a little bit kind of farther away in the game. That they, you know, all of a sudden, it's like, they're dancing to the song finally, like, Okay, fine. So funky, funky dance track. Cool.
Ben 26:54
It is. It is funny that you say that. Oh, Moray was one of the more difficult tracks because like, boy, it is definitely it is a very fun track. I think we both kind of singled it out as like, wow, this is just a great song.
Steve Pardo 27:05
Oh, cool. That's great. I'm glad to hear Yeah, I mean, I still want to hear it. Think about all this. Like it was never supposed to be this song was never supposed to make it on the soundtrack. But here it is, you know.
Think that music soundtracks underscore, one of the things that that they can do is bring out a sense of the narrative and the backstory of a given place or an environment that nothing else is currently doing. Right? It's just another piece of that storytelling puzzle that that we have access to. So yeah, that
Phil 27:49
that like that friction, I almost call it between the acoustic and the synthetic instrumentation. The way you articulate it really kind of elucidates my, my feeling when I was playing it of lists. The synthetic elements kind of made me feel like I was in this otherworldly or like Alien place, whereas like the acoustic elements made me feel at home. And that, you know, that I think that really, really worked really, really knocked it out of the park. And I guess maybe a question that I have then is thinking about these town Diems thinking about home and whatnot. You know, what did? What did home sound like for you? Or what does home sound like for you now?
Steve Pardo 28:37
Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a that's awesome. That's an awesome question. Because I think that it actually reflects exactly what I wrote for Bartow. And that's kind of freaking me out a little bit. So my wife is a flute player, and she practices the flute. And now she's a mother as well. And she practices the flute literally every day, for hours at a time.
So I hear she's the soundtrack to my life. She's not doing it right now. But she's usually playing downstairs in the living room or in our bedroom, warm ups etudes you know, an orchestral excerpt. And I utilize her playing just about every soundtrack that I'm that I'm working on. I'm a flute player as well, but her flute playing is like miles better than mine. And so it feels like a little bit cheating that I have access to her for like every single project but but for home that is so interesting that you say that because she's the sound of the basically representing the mother in the game. So whenever you hear her playing, it's because it's that reflection of like the mother, Susan, the mother in the game, you know, this isn't a spoiler because she passes away like, in the first in like the tutorial you you sort of get the sense that she's passed away. And so her her like, you know presence is kind of persist throughout the entire game. But it's very clear at the very beginning of the game when she's actually there in the room. It's just like solo flute. And then and then anytime that the mother is, is like being referenced, or if there's a character that has known your mother, you're hearing her play the flute, actually the character and Nadine, who is another character that kind of persists throughout the entire game, didn't feel like she was really being treated correctly until we brought in alto flew to represent her character because she's like, she has known the main character's mother and is a part of that. You're like your home story. But the soundtrack of Bartow as like a rooted you know, the actual Sonic palette is folk instruments, guitar, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, mandolin, ukulele, and these are instruments that we are in our home picking up and playing every day, right? I'm a guitar player as well. And one of the things this is a little bit inside baseball for my life. But one of the things that I that my my wife tells me over and over again is she knew she fell in love with me when I played Blackbird for her on the on the acoustic guitar. Back then we were like freshman college. Right. So yeah, home. I mean, my home is Bartow and away. So that's really fascinating. That you mentioned
Phil 32:09
No, I think I think even to kind of continue down that, that route. like growing up, you know, obviously, you play a lot of instruments now. Was was music something that was like, a big part of like your childhood? Like, who were your parents playing music? Or was it one of those situations where, you know, your parents forced you to play music and then you ended up loving it? Like, what what was that? Like?
Steve Pardo 32:31
It was it was the best of both of those worlds were my I grew up in a musical family. My mom is a classical pianist. I heard her playing. You know, she taught piano lessons out of our home. So I heard her playing every day. My dad is a bossa nova guitar player, singer, songwriter. And he also plays keyboards, but he's very much so like a natural musician, right? So neither of them forced music on me, by any means. They never, I mean, like, when I was maybe three years old. They brought me to a music store and I saw a violin. And even then I was like, I want to play violin. And they were like, Okay, I guess we'll sign you up for violin lessons. And then like a year later, I was like, I don't want to play violin anymore. And they were like, Okay, fine. My mom never forced me to learn piano she never taught me. Same as my dad, you know, never forced it on me. So it was very, like, just I was surrounded by it in a positive way. And chose it as my, you know, hobby. And then career. Pretty early on, you know, I just fell in love with the Beatles and jazz and later, like, indie rock and classical music. So yeah, but that was all none of it was forced on me. It was just this presence in my life that felt like I had to be a part of it. Yeah.
Ben 33:59
Can you maybe talk about how you came to games and writing music for games? And would you kind of consider yourself a gamer or are you someone who really had split music side that brought you in?
Steve Pardo 34:11
I definitely grew up a gamer. I had an NES I had an SNES. I had an n 64. I had a Gameboy. I had a game Q. I had an Xbox. So I, I was gaming throughout my entire childhood. For sure. Koji Kondo the composer for Mario and Zelda and others is my hero to this day. And I got to meet Shigeru Miyamoto, like two years ago, and it was one of the happiest days of my life by far. Yeah, and I wouldn't I'm gonna say that I do not consider myself a gamer anymore. Although I still play make it a point to play one or two. You know, kind of me meaningful creative, you know, spirited types of titles that come out, you know, Game of the Year kind of titles, just because, you know, I don't have much time either I've kids obviously, and you know, I'm busy and so, but I still, I still feel like not only is it by, you know, it's it's sort of I, I'm by by nature of my trade is required of me to stay current. So I owe it to myself to make sure that I'm playing the latest and greatest, but also just, I just enjoy it. And I'm playing the pathless currently right now on PS five. And that's my speed. You know what I mean? Like Oster, wintry the composer is a hero of mine, for sure. And, you know, like, the speed of that game and the message that it's sending, it's nonviolent, but it's also very, you know, lots of action and like, you're on your toes, and very, very thoughtful in that engagement. But then, you know, I still have a Nintendo Switch, and I play with my kids. And we, you know, every weekend, we'll spend like, a couple hours playing Madden or that kind of thing. But yeah, so I try to I try to choose the titles that I'm engaging with these days, wisely and intentionally. And with obviously, with an ear towards like learning something, or how does this apply to, you know, my field
Phil 36:24
kind of going off of Ben's question. You know, I feel like you are working at harmonic string, like, like, around that time when they were just like, really blowing up, you know, like rock band was, was big rock band, three Rock Band VR, and those kinds of things. I'm wondering, kind of, what was that kind of like your first big foray? And in the games industry? Or were you working at some other places before?
Steve Pardo 36:51
Yes, I'm sorry. I apologize. I missed the back half of that of that earlier question. So but yeah, so my first job out of school, was stumbling into being a composer slash sound designer, on the audio team at harmonics Music Systems. For in the first game that I hopped into was the Beatles Rock Band, featuring the Beatles. So, you know, and I, I was super interested in in games and music, but never really put the two together. And that that that could be of career choice for myself. When I was in school. It was in Miami, I just saw myself as a saxophone player. That's what I got my undergraduate and jazz saxophone, and then later jazz writing. But that that opportunity, or the way to get into the games industry was never clear to me. And I never thought about it. I was like, no one actually has these jobs. No one actually can write music for video games. That's not a thing people do. And so so when the opportunity kind of showed up, I just like, I just, I couldn't say no, you know, and thankfully, we were at a point, you know, where we just had a school and I could, we could be flexible, and we can move to Boston, and make that make that happen. So yeah, we were thrown right into it. I had learned, you know, so much that first year of working at harmonics, about the culture of making games, the technology, that they're, you know, what it was like to work in a game engine, what it's like to work with artists and producers and game designers. The whole thing, like, there wasn't a school, at least not to my knowledge, there wasn't a school of like, game audio, that could have prepared me for that. The only thing the only reason I got in, at the time I did is because you know, the music, I think, you know, you know, they they saw that I could produce quality audio through the music that I was making, and that I had chops with MIDI, which at that time was really important for harmonics because we were making, we're doing no charts. You know, what we call authoring for a rock band, all the Rock Band games, so I authored guitar parts, vocal parts, you know, drum parts, keyboard parts later for Rock Band three, as like, the main bulk of my job. That's kind of how I got into the industry is just from being able to transcribe guitar parts, right? I actually learned a lot of guitar working for Rock Band three, because it actually if you if y'all know it actually shipped with like a Pro guitar, which is basically a real guitar Game Controller, which is insane. But I learned, like, you know, Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan tunes that way, so I actually got, like, reasonably decent. I'm playing rock solos these thanks to that.
Ben 39:42
I'm kind of wondering it. You know, was there a vision for you of like, oh, yeah, because I think you're talking about it there where it's like, is there a space for music in games or being a part of an industry that is designing music music for games, and it sounds like you're almost kind of coming in as it was growing as a is a place where it's like, oh, I can get a job doing that. And so can you maybe talk about how you were how you were thinking about that?
Steve Pardo 40:06
Well, I saw it as an opportunity to do what I really wanted to do, which was write music, you know, and whether that be for games or for TV, or for myself, I didn't really care if I could somehow find a way to make music as a job. That to me seems like a luxury. So, you know, while I was, when I stumbled into it, I knew I had stumbled into it. And I felt very lucky. I still feel very, very lucky. And I whenever, you know, a young person asks me, how did you get into games? I'm like, Sorry, kid, like, I don't know what to say. I stumbled into games, right? Maybe go to game jams, you know, maybe go to GDC. That's what I would. That's what I'm saying nowadays, right? Because it still feels like I just, you know, struggled a little bit. So. But like, once I was in, I knew that. And I still, I do not consider myself a sound designer as much as I do a composer. But this was a sound design gig. So I just kept making music kind of being myself, making music, putting it out there. Posting in our internal chat, like, Hey, I put out the song. And then it was only like a year after that, that a coworker of mine, who was making an indie game on the side, invited me to do the soundtrack for that game, which was outside of harmonics. And that led me doing that one soundtrack, which was Grim Dawn led me to forming SKU sound a few late years later on, which is the game, audios slash music studio that, that we co founded in 2014? And that I'm still working with today?
Phil 41:48
Yeah, do you? Do you feel? Like you know, obviously, games are incredibly popular now. You know, I think I think a lot of people say they're bigger than the film industry and things like that. Do you think because of that, that there has been kind of a clear path paved for somebody who wants to get into music and, and games. And the reason I asked is because I I was telling Ben that like way back in 2012, I went and saw the Final Fantasy distant worlds concert in Chicago with my dad, who was at the time was like a mid 60s Black man never played a video game in his life, but loves classical music and opera and things like that. And it was kind of this great moment of, for him. That was a moment where he's like, Oh, games, music is actually like, good. It's like this. You know, there's like skill involved. And after that he like, actually, like listens to at least Final Fantasy music and stuff like that. And I'm curious, like, as public perception has changed, about what games can be? And you know what they are? Do you think that that, you know, that path is becoming a little bit more open for somebody who like maybe as in school and wants to get in the industry?
Steve Pardo 43:04
Yeah, I'll answer that question in a few different ways. I think that what's the most exciting about today's landscape with both? Well, we'll speak mainly to games and I know this exists for TV and film as well. But there's so much variation that kind of no matter what type of musician and composer producer that you are, you will be able to find titles that match your kind of output, your creative who you are, or who you seek to be right. Like there's no stopping anybody that makes any kind of music for making a game soundtrack. The only the only gate is finding those titles where kind of it matches your your creative will, right, because I don't think and I think this is a common misconception that like a composer who is most excited about, let's say rock needs to learn, you know, classical harmony, counterpoint orchestration, like no, that's, that's not, like necessary anymore. Like there are plenty of ways to use your skills in rock production for games today. You know, look, I mean, Darren Korb is the perfect example. Right? I mean, he's, he's, he's obviously branching out. But, you know, he comes from that, like studio production, music sensibility, as opposed to like, the symphony, right? Or the classical tradition. So myself, I'm a jazz musician, right? Like I, I stumble into orchestration time and time to time from time to time. But it all comes back to jazz for me, no matter what I'm working on. Sojourner is very clearly inspired by multiple types of jazz. So so, you know, for a young composer, it's like, sometimes there's there are these stresses that you feel like, I need to live up to this level of of this kind of music in order to get a job. And, you know, as long as your craft is high, no matter what kind of music you're making, you'll be able to find professional work. Absolutely. And the other thing I'm going to say to this question is that there's not just one track to work. And your interest today may not be your interest tomorrow, and to be seeking out ways to grow in ways that, you know, may or may not have anything to do with the music you're making, like you, for me, I found a lot of joy in this generative music thing, thanks to harmonics, you know, because we were making weird music experiences where the player is changing the music, depending on what they're doing, or what what's happening in the game. Now, that's also just a technique that every game composer or I won't say every but most game composers are utilizing in their games, it's like, the modern way to score for games is having a lot of interactivity, a sense, what we call adaptive Music Systems, right. So now I'm doing that, like so much, it's almost most of my day is working on AI, generative music systems to drive new, newly composed music, just from hitting the play button, right? Like, every time you hit play, it's a new song. So and I love it. And that, you know, has that it has that bit of improvisation. And that bit of surprise, that stems from jazz, which is like right here for me. And so I'm able to connect with it, right. And also, I also just have, I love technology, I've always been a nerd in that way. So, you know, getting into scripting and working in game engine is, is certainly a passion of mine that has grown since working in the game industry. So all that to say, like I mentioned all these things, because the opportunities for a young composer or sound designer, are so much wider than they were when I got started in 2009, the games and just music tech has like started branching out into crazy different ways. You know, just not not just from the music production tool sensibility, but just the applications of social media and virtual reality, you know, so like, virtual concerts, video games, obviously, just like people are consuming media in new ways. And audio and music can react in new ways. And as long as you're willing to kind of be, you know, into,
you know, emerging technology. And if you're inspired by that, you can find new ways to be yourself still as a creator, to be yourself still as an artist, and get work. If that if that's again, like I'm saying that as if getting work is the ultimate means to an end. You know, if you're an artist that just wants to make a cool indie game, and you you have an expression that you want to see out there, then you can make a video game on an indie scale. That's that speaks almost like you know, almost like an album. You know, a musician just releasing an album, your game can be an album, and just say something creatively to a certain audience that you want to connect to.
Ben 48:15
And Steve, sorry, for just a minute what I think you said, AI generative music. What is that?
Steve Pardo 48:23
Let's back up when you said AI generative.
Ben 48:25
You said that I have that. I've been fixated on that for the rest of the way that you answering that question. I was like, I have What in God's name.
Steve Pardo 48:33
Okay. Yeah, this is the most recent thing that's been made public. So just two days ago, the company that I'm audio directing for it's the name of it is authentic artists had a big press, push. And now we're out there. And you know, it's not it's no longer a secret. I've been working with these folks for over a year now. As audio director. It's the premise of it sounds scary. But it's actually not. And it's actually awesome. And so, as I describe what it is, like, don't feel so guarded, you know, I wouldn't be doing this if there if I didn't think it was cool and had virtue. So and there's also a reason that it's called authentic artists. So the premise of it is virtual artists, non human virtual artists that are just simply just CGI characters, cartoon characters, very similar to like, you know, you guys know gorillas, little Mikayla or Hatsune Miku. This is sort of the the kind of the lineage of virtual artists that a bit of art sort of already out there. But this is all way more about interactivity with the music that they're creating. And the concerts that they're putting on. The audience has direct control over what they're hearing and can change. The backstory or not the back story Sorry, can change the The trajectory of the kinds of music that these virtual artists will create, as well as like culturally where they are going to be residing, right? Practically, what that means is, they're going to be on Twitch, they're going to be doing these virtual DJ shows, you can change the music that's currently playing, using Twitch, you know, key commands. And then like the commands at a certain, you know, frequency, like a song section or two, will get sent to our system will update the music in real time and will change according to the wills of the chat, the people that are engaging with the music in real time,
Ben 50:42
what kind of changes could you make?
Steve Pardo 50:44
Well, it's aI driven. So the world is your oyster, you can change, you can make a completely new song, you can change, the kind of drumbeat that it's playing, you can make it do a bass drop, you can make it do a saxophone drop, you know what I mean? Like, you could just you could do, you can literally do whatever you want as long. So we just need to, like, expose certain properties, like do we want to recompose something? Do we just want to do SOUND SWAP? Do we want to change the tempo that we wanted, you know what I mean? Like it's MAKE IT major go to minor, that all anything so
Ben 51:18
so so I guess is the is the big picture vision that like on a place like Twitch, you would have a kind of a digital persona artist that people would be like, go would go listen to and they would be creative creating tracks to you to kind of a very specific person watching.
Steve Pardo 51:35
Well, we say you right now it's just the community. So because we just got started to so the way it works right now is we have one instance of a show running in real time. So it's a show. So the audience is collectively teaming together and deciding, you know, the path of the music. Yeah, but then, like, the future stuff is all TBD. It's sort of like we want to we want to prove out that well, audiences are connecting. That's the most important thing is that that there is meaningful interaction between the audience and and the artist, virtual artists and, and for what it's worth, like there is when I when I go back to the virtue question. Like I'm, we're working with human artists, for sure. To make this sound as good as possible. Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park fame, is one of our lead investors and he's collaborating with us as on the audio level decap, who's like a really well known producer known for his drum samples on splice among other things. Stolen drums, great, good, fine, okay, Chip soul who's a game game composer, I've gotten to loop in Oracle blues, a local crew from Nashville. Lots of talent making this happen. And that's the spirit. It's a collaboration, it's a team effort. It's not just this robot in the sky. It's, you know, human beings collaborating, getting paid to, you know, make music have this kind of technological, you know, sensibility, you know, happen.
Phil 53:19
Interesting. That's, um, I was listening to the broken record podcast with Mike Shinoda. And I, he does like a Twitch stream where he like, composes music on the fly with with the user submitted clips is that is this so this is almost like an evolution of, of that with the way more enter interactivity and algorithmic. layering, and,
Steve Pardo 53:45
yeah, I'm glad I'm glad, you know, Mike's Mike's Twitch channel, because he, when we first were talking with him, immediately got what we were doing, and was just freaking out a little bit. So the spirit of his Twitch channel is close, but he's definitely more in the studio working from nothing, whereas what we have is very much so something that then the audience can immediately affect in an immediately meaningful way. So it's a lot quicker. But what Mike does is very slow. And what I love about Mike's Twitch channel is that it's you get like a behind the scenes view into someone like his is, you know, workflow and creative process. So obviously, we're looking at that as being something that we can do as well. But, but for now, it's more so about this, the fast paced nature of this being a show, and, you know, you know, kind of hyper changes to the music in real time.
Ben 54:57
Unless there's, unless there's, you know, there's something that we haven't asked that you want to touch on?
Steve Pardo 55:03
No. I hope that we touched on some things that y'all can play with.
Ben 55:09
It was a it was great. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Steve Pardo 55:13
Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you guys for reaching out. This has been a blast for me. So yeah, all the best and help help we can do it again.
Phil 55:22
All right. Catch you later
Ben 55:34
Hey, everyone, thanks for listening to this episode with Steve Pardo. He took a call kind of abruptly at the end. And eventually he did come back. But the goodbyes were just a little too awkward. That's not on Steve Pardo that is on us. And so it kind of didn't quite fit. So we're just here to say, Hey, thanks for listening. And this is this is our moment of kind of try to wrap things up.
Phil 56:00
We promise we're not that awkward.
Ben 56:03
But I am to be clear, to be clear, I just want to be clear, Phil is not Phil is not that awkward? I am.
Phil 56:11
But yeah, thanks Steve Pardo for coming on to for the interview. You can find him on Twitter at Steve Pardo, or his website is Steve pardo.com. Where can they find you, Ben?
Ben 56:25
They can find me at at Sid underscore, radio underscore lad.
Phil 56:30
And you can find me on Twitter at 3d Cisco. And of course, you can find this podcast at origin story underscore thanks to Ryan Hopper for providing the music for our show. And thanks to melody Hirsch, for the awesome cover art. If you have any questions, concerns, ideas, or if you just want to tell us what your favorite sandwich is, you can hit us up over Twitter, again, at origin story underscore or on our Gmail, the origin story pod@gmail.com.
Ben 57:10
Also, if you liked this episode, actually, even if you hated it, pull it up on iTunes and leave a review. You don't have to say anything, just give us the stars. that'll that'll help people find the podcast. I think it'll even help it if you just like want to drop a one star review. So go ahead live your life.
Phil 57:30
And I hear that even if you hate it, if you do the five star it actually counts as the same thing. So just saying
Ben 57:39
that that's true. That's true.
Phil 57:45
So without further ado, we will catch you all again here shortly with the next interview. Peace. Bye
