Gina Nutt (Night Rooms) on Horror and the Power of What Goes Unsaid
Episode Description
Gina Nutt is the author of the essay collection Night Rooms (Two Dollar Radio) and the poetry collection Wilderness Champion (Gold Wake Press). She earned her MFA from Syracuse University. Her writing has appeared in Cosmonauts Avenue, Joyland, Ninth Letter, and other publications.
We talk about her relationship to horror movies and how that's informed her approach to writing. Gina's writing is constantly finding a way to make real what goes unsaid - and to make essays that, not unlike a horror movie, revolve around a thing that may never appear onscreen.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
Learn more about Night Rooms by Gina Nutt here.
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Phil 0:20
Welcome to origin story, the podcast where we interview creators about where they came from to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell and I'm here with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And today, I'm really excited to talk about our interview with Gina Nutt about her new essay collection night rooms, published by $2. Radio. They describe it as a poetic collection of personal essays, that weaves together fragmented images, from horror films, and cultural tropes to meditate on anxiety and depression, suicide, body image identity and grief, then, this was a great conversation.
Ben 1:02
Yeah, this is a great conversation. And I think you and I were both drawn to this, because of the way that Gina is able to in a really, I think, almost poetic way, weave in these different horror movies. And, you know, I think you and I kind of before the interview, we're really having this conversation about the ways that you can bring kind of outside media into a thing, and to kind of make it your own intertextuality. Right, like, how do you make this thing? For someone who hasn't seen whatever horror movie you're referencing? How do you make it feel resonant, and relevant, and Jean is, I think, really good at that.
Phil 1:40
Yeah, it's funny, we recently were talking about a YouTube video about fashion and how they were the host was kind of using Marvel to talk about intertextuality and Ben and I kind of came down to this point of, outside of academia intertextuality can feel almost like a cheap trick as something that you can easily lean on. And without doing the work. And I think in my own personal writing, I have had some aversion to or some some discomfort and being very referential to the real world and, you know, pop culture and things that I like, and that's something I've had to take it over and in nuts collection does such a great job of, of inter weaving her personal connection to horror films and, and other types of media. And really unexpected and interesting ways. And I think, partially, that's just from the juxtaposition that exists in the in this collection of like, each essay is essentially a collage or a segmented piece where she brings in stories, anecdotes, actual scenes, quotes from all over, and kind of smashes them together. And that's really poetic and interesting way and gives the reader a lot of chance to, to bring their own conclusions.
Ben 3:09
Yeah, and the other thing not often does is like recreate the scene within the essay. So that even if you haven't seen, it follows that you haven't seen JAWS or you know, whatever she's referencing, you'll be kind of like, it's as though you're kind of watching this horror movie over her shoulder in some ways, where you're kind of watching her kind of sit in this scene and perceive the scene alongside her. And the other thing that you're kind of getting into is like this, this collage, where oftentimes I kind of, I really admire the way that she's able to just like, paint these emotions without you even realizing it's kind of happening until you reach the end of an essay. Because you'll get a lot of kind of tiny moments or little scenes, are they from her life? Are they from a movie, you know, they're, they're mixed together, and you're not always sure where it's going until you kind of hit that ending, and you're like, oh, you know, all these, this collage of things has suddenly added up to, you know, a piece about grief or a piece about fear or a piece about like despair, and so they just fit together in such a such a great way. That's, yeah, just very moving.
Phil 4:24
Yeah, and I always feel that I know, I found a really good piece of literature when it's able to take something that has kind of been bubbling in my subconscious for a long time, and bring it to the surface and put words to maybe a feeling that I've had that I haven't been able to articulate myself and Gina does such a good job of elucidating elucidating a lot of points that I've maybe felt about her and its ability to allow us to safely explore perience potentially traumatic or hard situations, and what that says about our relationship to you know those those hearts experiences. Yeah. So yeah, it was a really, really eye opening kind of conversation and made made me really appreciate why I do like horror in the
Ben 5:20
first Yeah. And I think that's such a good point because I think I'm someone who's like a big baby about horror. And so it's like, I don't often find a way kind of into it. It feels like it's a genre that like, it can be unwelcoming if you're kind of coming in cold, right? If you're like not down to see someone's arm get ripped off for whatever reason, like it can be something that's difficult to get into. And I think she's able to do this thing where she invites you in to kind of mess with and play with, like the undercurrents of a lot of horror in a way that it is, I think, very welcoming.
Phil 5:56
For sure. And yeah, how will we not spoil any of what actually happens in there, but there's some surprising surprising moments in there for you all to hear.
Ben 6:06
Let's, let's get to it. No hot takes from us. They're all from Gina. Roll the clip.
Gina is the author of the essay collection night rooms and the poetry collection wilderness champion. She earned her MFA from Syracuse University. Her writing has appeared in cosmonauts Avenue Joyland, ninth letter and other publications. Sheena, thank you so much for joining us today.
Gina Nutt 6:51
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and to talk with you.
Ben 6:57
Today, your book has been out for I think, just a little bit over a month. How are you feeling? And what has the reception to the book been like so far?
Gina Nutt 7:06
I'm feeling really good about it. I wasn't entirely sure what I could expect or hope for. So I came in just just thinking just see what happens. And so I've been really warmed by the response from readers, booksellers. podcasters, you know, folks have really rallied for this book. And it's been really lovely to in the capacity, I can talk with folks and do virtual events and, and I've loved getting to meet people to the extent that I can over the internet and at virtual events. I love that we've pivoted and made space for people to be able to celebrate their books. So it's been really wonderful.
Ben 7:51
Yeah, have you been able to set foot in a bookstore since I guess the pandemic kicked off at all?
Gina Nutt 7:57
So so we have two local bookstores that I that I love here in Ithaca, and they've both offered curbside or you can go in and browse while wearing a mask. So I've been able to stay in books and and support those local stores. So it's been really lovely to visit and, and keep my stacks nice and tall. Right?
Phil 8:22
How did you kind of lay on done choosing $2 radio as the pope as the publisher? What was kind of the story behind night rooms? That rooms is like Genesis?
Gina Nutt 8:34
Yeah, so I found $2 radio back in 2015. That was my first encounter with them, which as I understand it is somewhat late for them because they've been around since 2008. And I picked up Sara Gerards binary star. And that novel, it's it's such a brief, poetic lyrical novel, it just blew me away. It was unlike a lot of books that I was reading at the time. And, and I loved it. And from there, I just I kept them on my radar as a press. I wanted to keep reading and I wanted to keep knowing their authors. And so eventually, when I had this book that I was thinking about taking next steps with $2 radio, was it at the top of my list. And I think initially I wasn't sure you know how it would work out. But I just I sent over Submittable no agent or anything like that I just sent from the slosh and just, I love that about them that for $3. They'll let you send your manuscript in because I came to submitting from poetry where I had been doing the contest circuit. So oftentimes I was submitting books for 25 or $28. You know, each time I sent that sent a book out a collection of poems. So this felt just kind of really lucky to me not only that I liked there But then it was like really reasonable. I just felt really good about that. I think the way they phrased it on their Submittable was you're buying us a cup of coffee for while we're reading your book. And I was like, I like that I'm down with that. And so I sent to them. And they had the book for just shy of a year. And I heard from Eric, who's one of the editors there. And Eric reached out over email and said, You know, I'm liking this book, is it still available? And I was just like, this isn't real. I was like, this is not, this can't be, like rain around my house. Very excited. So not cool. But they ended up asking if they could publish it. And, and I was so delighted to work with Eric and Eliza, they're just wonderful people. And so that's how I linked up with them was I sent through slush open, you know, they have a year round reading period. And I just took a chance on it because I loved their work and thought maybe they'd be into it. So yeah, I was really lucky.
Ben 11:12
Yeah, no, agent, I'm like, kind of kind of staggered by that. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. We have, I think this question about and you're kind of talking about starting in poetry and doing the poetry circuit, I think I've always started to feel like the the boundary line between especially kind of prose, poetry, and creative nonfiction is really thin. And I felt that through a lot of these essays, that they have kind of a poetic quality to them. And so I'm wondering if you want to talk about like, what the line for you is between those two things. And you know, what the genesis for these as essays as opposed to his poems was? Sure. So
Gina Nutt 11:52
I think initially, my earliest impulse when I, when I came to the first essay that I wrote, it was a really sad time in my life, it was following the death of my father in law. And I was having a really just impossible time writing, and was thinking a lot about death and just feeling very, very, like hopeless in a sense, and almost like, what does writing accomplish? And I'm someone who writes every day. So I was like, Well, I'm gonna write about death. And we're going to just lean into this place. And I think initially, I tried to maybe make them poems. I had them, Edwards going across a page, I had just all kinds of weird arrangements. And then finally, I was like, we're just going to collapse these into paragraphs, all these thoughts and just follow the images and follow the feelings. And so I wrote toward that first, the first essay that I wrote for the book. And I spent about a year on that. And as I worked, I was keeping notes, I was writing toward other movies or other life experiences beyond this particular death. And then when I was ready to send that essay out, I wasn't ready to leave the premise. So I just, I kept growing it. And the idea of okay, I'm writing a book was initially kind of daunting to me. So I did trick myself and say, you're just writing one prose poem after another because that for me is, I that's how I start writing everything I write in a journal. And it's just these, it's all in prose. lineation when I do use it, for poems often comes later in revision. But I love the momentum, you can get a thought and of detail when you just lean into the sentences and, and follow it. Because you can always cut later, you can always prune and add more if you want. I go the opposite way where I, I take things out. And I do find that a lot of my revision ends up being expansion and compression, we're all really write these long, just everything in the kitchen sink drafts. And then later after I've had some time, I'll just prune and pull back a bit and see if the ghost of what was there remains and that goes to the feelings that were initially conjured. Can that stand? It doesn't always work. But you know, sometimes it does. And when it does, you know, this is the result when it when it works out. Well.
Phil 14:27
What was the first essay out of curiosity that kind of helped shape the book into what it would eventually become?
Gina Nutt 14:35
So it was the essay about it follows and anxiety. But there are I love that the response to that, that's fantastic. Um, I I also have some bits that are in the beginning and the end. So I ended up breaking that essay apart and putting some of the beginning at the beginning of the book. and some of the end towards the end of the book. And as I grew the manuscript, that essay served as a kind of scaffolding, because for a book like this, it's nice to have those signposts like, I need to know, I need to have some idea of where I'm going, I don't have to have it all figured out. But having some clarity, I think is, it was important for me. And I know, as I continued working and thinking about sharing it, eventually, I knew it would be important for readers to have some steady footing, because I can be dreamy, and lyric, all I want. But if I want to welcome people into this space, I think it's really important to give them give a reader solid ground to invite them rather than exclude them and just be like, Oh, this is my dream, you know? That's cool. That's fine. But I want people to be here with me. Yeah,
Ben 15:53
I really, I sorry, go ahead. Oh,
Phil 15:57
just to kind of go go down that road a little bit further. Thinking about, you know, the, the form of the collection, you know, what I might call like a collage or like a segmented essay collection, or, you know, has some of the some of that DNA, at least within the individual essays. And one thing I found, when I'm working on essays that are kind of taking a bunch of different elements, and juxtaposing them in order to make like this, this broader statement is that that emergent aspect of it that you're talking about, like you know, the follows essay started as one thing and then you realize, like, oh shit, I can, like break it up. And that becomes like, a bigger thing for these other essays is a really interesting kind of dynamic for essay writing, that isn't always the case. And I'm wondering, just like how that experience was for you, as the as you continue to unravel this collection? Like what was the process of figuring out how you were, you know, composing the individual essays?
Gina Nutt 17:05
Yeah, so it definitely emerged, as I worked, it would have taken me so much less time, if I'd had like a clear proposal or outline, I'm in awe of writers who can do that, who like sell a book on proposal and then write it after, like, that would take me I don't know if I could do. So to find the different pockets, or the different essays, the different turns, the book takes, I ended up, I had an ongoing Word doc, where I was just writing these prose, you know, paragraphs. And then eventually, I started cutting up note cards, which I color coded two different threads within the book. So blue, those cards stood for movies, purple cards stood for childhood, yellow cards stood for death or death culture in the United States, which we have throughout, and I taped them on the wall. And I started moving pieces around or taking them out, or adding new pieces that weren't in the Word doc and writing towards those. So in a way, being able to see everything laid out in that collage sense, or taped up on the wall really gave me a clearer sense of it, the larger arc, and all the possible, the threads I was trying to hold and all those themes. I loved the note cards, I had them up for a year it was, you know, sometimes they would fall or like the cats would mess with them. And, you know, it kind of be like, Where was this piece? Like? I'd have to remember or if something fell away, and I lost it for a few weeks and just forgot it was there. I was like, Well, I guess that wasn't important. So but I think having that physical sense of collage was really important to not only finding the different things I was writing about, but also finding what ended up what ended up being, you know, a push towards the, the ultimate arc of the book and the shape of it.
Ben 19:13
And, you know, was it was it the case that you were like, you would have certain, you know, horror movies up in certain places. And then you'd be like, oh, you know, I want this to be this actually makes more sense over in this essay over here. And so it was kind of you had a lot of moments. And it was finding where the moments or the kind of pieces fit the most kind of thematically with the essay. You were kind of crafting.
Gina Nutt 19:37
Yeah, there were a few cases, I think, where I ended up moving movies or, you know, I had really brief writings about like the movie revenge was one where I was writing about that movie and I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna write that essay, but then I ended up writing that essay and writing towards it because I kept pulling in other movies. And I think for me, it was Just being able to see it all laid out really helped to say, Okay, well, this actually should be its own thing like the dream essay where I write about Nightmare on Elm Street that ended up becoming its own essay about dreams and sleep and the weird uncanny parallels between sleep and death, which for some reason, to me was something that I got really stuck on for a while. Despite how brief that essay is, but that was originally part of a different essay, but I let it have its own little brief, brief moment. Because I thought it would stand better on its own. So that ended up happening too. Sometimes I wanted things to shine more, feel more separate the ocean essay two, I think the first and second essays were I had initially, initially bled them together, but I broke them. And I was like, Okay, this is all ocean water. This is all kind of the lead. And so those first two, were initially, one.
Ben 21:07
Can you maybe talk about how you came up with this, obviously, as we're kind of already talking about a lot of them use horror movies as kind of framing. And one of the things that I think works really well is the way you're able to, it's not just kind of references to those movies. It is it's almost like we're sitting with you, as you're watching those movies, that you'll kind of play out the scene. And I'd kind of had that reaction to the follows one because that that first scene from it follows where the girl is running around, and her dad can't see what's chasing her. I'm fine dad. Which is like really powerful in the movie was, like, rendered in such a way in this essay that it like, also is impactful in like, a similar way. And so yeah, how did you think about bringing that in and making that, you know, both work as a framing device. And also work is something that, you know, I think someone who hasn't maybe seen those movies can still feel like they're participating in a way, or it's like present in a way that it's, it's still working.
Gina Nutt 22:17
So I think, definitely the I was I was tapping and trying to tap into that full body experience of watching a horror movie and observing it, which now seems really distant because I haven't like watched a horror movie in a theater. But that full immersion. It's, it's such a specific real thing. I think that's true of any movie. But I think especially for horror, there's something very specific that you get out of watching it on a large screen, potentially sharing that experience with strangers in a dark room. Like, that just seems unreal to me. But I wanted to conjure that and give people that memory on the page. But I also wanted it to be open to people who maybe weren't as versed in horror, or as familiar with some of these movies or any of them. So I tried to tap into this idea of kind of the collective consciousness of horror. So, okay, we know the nightmare man, a lot of people know that's going to be Freddy Krueger, you know, the man who like comes into your dreams and kills you or tries to. So it ended up being kind of a trick that I lifted from fable or folklore, like, the woman in the desert or so instead of using character names, I was giving all the people I was writing about just these kinds of general, almost folkloric names, you know, it's kind of like, well, we know how this ends for the mistress, or we know how this ends, for the babysitter in the old house at night. You know, you we just have this kind of cultural code, I think for those things that are frightening or those situations that are dangerous, or people who are typically in danger. So I leaned into that and and try to use that as a device to maybe you don't have to know the name of the movie because that's the situation that's familiar. It's the it's the premise that that frightens us. There's a little bit of distance there.
Phil 24:30
Yeah, I felt that you did such a good job of articulating something that I kind of implicitly felt about or like, I'm somebody who grew up in loved horror movies. My growing up my mom would when my brother was acting out people like, she'd be like, Oh, I'm going to call Freddie if you don't, you know, get your act together, or whatever. So like, it's always been a part of my life. And you I think that the book does a good job of in some way. is showing the joy that can be found in watching the genre because of something that you point out of this call and response. How, if you are privy to the tropes of the genre, it kind of allows you to engage with it. And I almost would call like, it feels like a safe space, like you're dealing with a very traumatic event, but it's kind of a safe space, because you can kind of anticipate what's supposed to happen and these really trying traumatic experiences. And the it follows SATs kind of going back to that one that felt so expertly placed in the collection, because it almost feels like the collection is is breaking open there. It's this this film that kind of goes against a lot of horror tropes. And you you point out how you search the screen and looking for, you know, where the the evil is. And hopefully, like, if you could find it, maybe you can, you can stop it from happening. I guess I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about this rumination on on call and response because it felt so. So elucidating to me just thinking about the genre. And I'd love for listeners to just hear your thoughts on that.
Gina Nutt 26:16
Well, I think to that, that when we go if you go back that a lot of horror movies are in conversation with each other. They're all kind of learning from each other. They're all in a sense. They're all in a lineage. They're all calling back to everything that came before which in a lot of ways all art does that right. It's calling back to everything that came before. But horror has a very particular way of doing it. Are several if we're thinking of like franchises, I mean, how many Freddy movies are there? How many Jason movies are? So there's that aspect of it. But then there's also the aspect of, you know, a movie like it follows where it takes all the all our expectations, and all the all the fear all the things that we've come to know and love about the genre. And it almost I think it's almost painful it points to watch that movie, how it really builds the anticipation there are times where, as you mentioned, watching it follows you might see someone in the background walking very slowly. And you think is that the monster is that is that it? And it's not it's just a person. Which is, which is a really intense experience. When I recall, like seeing that in theaters for the first time. It just had a really it was it had a big impact on me. And I had this if that movie did not let me go, it followed me. And it definitely came up when I was writing that first essay when I was thinking about in particular deaths in my life, particularly those people in my life who've chosen suicide. And I was thinking about the sense of mental health and suicide and these choices that other people make following me in a sense. And there was I think, a sense of desperation, like if I can pinpoint where someone's making this choice or what to look for. And I think that was definitely something I was I was grappling with at the time. And I think I still do i i think it's unavoidable for a lot of people who have that experience to let it go and to just stop thinking oh, if I can just see if I can just call it next time.
But I think that's what makes it I think that's something that a lot of people experience Yeah.
Phil 28:48
Yeah, you had a moment. I don't know if I have the quote here you basically are talking about here it is sometimes the unseen is more terrifying than what's in view, what the imagination adds to the blank space how it answers the open ended questions and there is this such a there's so much in this book about thinking about finality and how you know, fiction narrative gives us a space to work through you know, these these questions that have no answers in our in our lived reality, like these open ended questions. And yeah, I felt especially in relation to suicide that the essay really does the essays do a really good job of complicating those feelings that oftentimes as you point out, media tries to simplify as like if we find the motive then okay, that we can close the book on it everybody's square, you know, so
Gina Nutt 29:56
there's, it's interesting there's what's the The Joan Didion essay we tell ourselves are the quote, we tell ourselves stories in order to live? That's like the quote everyone kind of gloms on to. But if if you extend and actually read that whole essay, she says, I think the line is we look for the sermon in the suicide. And that whole essay ends up just being about the kind of narratives we impose. And in a sense, I think that's here looking for that narrative kind of reaching toward it. But I do think in a lot of ways, those those answers, they do elude us because I think death and suicide, but death full stop, I think it's kind of beyond our, our reckoning in some ways. So all we can do is try and make sense of it. Which I think are or tries to do, in some ways. Some really loud with some really over the top ways. Maybe it makes us a little less afraid. I don't know, I'm not particularly fond of cabins. You know, I probably have the genre to thank for that.
Ben 31:09
But yeah, yeah. And I think that gets I think we were talking about this kind of before you came on that so many of the different essays feel like they're playing with this idea of like, why we're drawn to horror, like what draws in different people and, and that, you know, almost across the collection, it feels like there's like a shifting answer for maybe what it is about a particular genre of horror, or a particular kind of series of tropes about like why we keep coming back to it. And I pull the line in the essay about kind of dark tourism because I think I thought this was a really good one. We've heard this one before. We know better. We're versed in urban legends, we know the ending, we listened because the story satisfies an urge towards darkness and promises relief. We are not in the story. I'm wondering if you can maybe talk about like, what is your relationship personally to horror and like, what do you think draws you in to these stories? And is there like, are there particular kind of horror tropes that you find yourself kind of vibing with or more attracted to? Or like you keep coming back to in a way that maybe some other ones don't?
Gina Nutt 32:20
Yeah, oh, I love I have so many favorite tropes, and vibes. I think initially, it's so funny that that this book came to be because initially, I think a lot of my early horror experiences felt really, I felt almost excluded from the genre, or I felt almost like there was no access point like, I had past boyfriends kind of explaining hard to me, which is always I think, just any person explaining something to me in a way that feels condescending is never fun. So there were those experiences. But I found that the more I watched and you know, kind of watching some of the some older hardware so like Dario Argento is a favorite of mine. There's something really dreamy and also super horrifying about those movies. But they're just like these Technicolor like dreamscapes, where I just, I love that, you know, the bright colors, the neon, and I love the music, too. And so when I think about that experience, which just felt a little more dreamy, to me, it didn't feel as like, it felt like something I could slip into a bit easier because I love dreamy, lyrical art, it's just a love of mine. And then, you know, from there, I kind of just fell down the rabbit hole. And it was it was everything, you know, watching, you know, Freddy, watching, you know, newer films as they came out and just finding my way through those. But in terms of films that I love, I think I'm definitely drawn to stories about women. So, you know, Rosemary's Baby was definitely one that I saw earlier on. And that stuck with me it follows of course. But I think to again, as we mentioned, that one kind of breaks the mold in that I don't think anyone's excluded from that monster, you know, women and men and everyone in between can you know, die from that creature, or a presence force, whatever it is. But definitely, the trope of women and particularly the final girl, the one who survives definitely resonates and lands with me. And I think we've seen that expanding in recent years to like, there are definitely more quieter. There are quieter iterations, right so it doesn't have to be Jamie Lee Curtis screaming as much as I love Jamie Lee Curtis now we have you know, quieter more Pacey films like, like the witch, you know something like that is just really cool to watch and witness or like midsummer, which I don't even know how to qualify that movie. Like it's harder for sure. But I don't even know what trope I call weird cult. Yeah, experience. Right? Well, it's Wicker Man. It's a callback to both wicker. Right? Which are I love those two. Yeah, I do. I do also like the whole cult trope. That's definitely fun.
Ben 35:43
No, I like that, because I also I guess I, I've only come to horror recently. I'm a giant baby. And so I think for a long time, and especially, I think maybe the types of horror that were getting made when I was in like high school and stuff was like the saw adjacent stuff, or it's like more graphic and I was like, I just don't think I like this. Like, I don't think this is for me. And I think only recently I've been like, oh, like, it doesn't always have to be that. That way it can be more kind of psychological or it can be more about like, angsty I guess. And that that tends to vibe with me more and I think more recently being like, oh, okay, there's there's some things in here that I can take something away from that feels more welcoming.
Gina Nutt 36:25
I remember the Saw movies. Those were very just i Yeah, I actually used to love those. Like when I was younger, like for some reason, like my friends and I love to saw like we thought it was so we thought it was very intelligent. I think the literary device we noticed as high schoolers was symbolic retribution, like the people were dying, dying by the you know, by their sins, which is of course, like a rip off of seven. Which is way better than saw. I do a really good a Brad Pitt at the end of that asking what's in the box? I won't.
Ben 37:12
I mean, I feel like it feels it feels a little bit like you did open the
Gina Nutt 37:16
door on this. What's in the box? What's in the box?
Phil 37:24
Yeah, I think we yeah, we've we've been sorry, I had to you ask? We I love that you brought up your love of horror that centered around female characters or femininity. Because, you know, we've talked a lot about like horror film with within the collection. But another thru line that I found was this ruminations on femininity femininity, and the the breaking of patriarchal molds of femininity, like I love these, the essays that are about like, the pageants about ballet and your descriptions of your own experiences within those times feel almost like, like horror, like how you're describing like those the moment of the Mother, you're, you're getting ready for to go on stage and the mother next to you working with her daughter, she like hits her with a, a hair brush or something like that. And it's kinda like these, these cracks in the facade of what we expect, is supposed to be like, pure and beautiful and imperfect. And I'm wondering, you know, did did those kinds of through lines, whether it be the pageants, or the ballet essay, or things like that, did those come later as you were kind of formulating what the collection was, was going to ultimately be about? Or was that also something that you had just been ruminating from on from the beginning?
Gina Nutt 39:02
I think it was something. So I think that figures into a lot of my work in my first collection of poems, I had a really brief series, and it was each poem was told from the persona, the voice of a different final girl. And they weren't necessarily each called, like, Oh, this is my poem from Rosemary's voice. They weren't that conspicuous or deliberate. But I knew I was writing them from that place. And I think femininity, and those more typical, or, you know, previously typical, because now I feel like there's no typical femininity, right? That's something I've always orbited in my work is just this kind of fascination with and dread of what it what it means to be a woman but also, you know, what does it mean to be a man because to understand, you know, oh, this is how women are supposed to behave in quotes. Probably I have to have some understanding of, you know, this is how men are expected to behave or, you know, now it's I think we're seeing those I think we've been seeing that binary just split, it's fractured, there's no more of it. And so I guess this is you know, kind of making sense of those earliest experiences that really drove home those really traditional modes of femininity and moving through the world and how violent some of them are, right like you mentioned the the mother hitting her daughter with a hairbrush but you know, we can expand that to all sorts of treatments of the body and so it's it was something I definitely found, found myself thinking about and also with ballet and just the the enormous attention that lands on the body and the shape of the body. At the same time as the demands that are made, right it's like this very physical movement that requires a lot and yet how small we were encouraged to be Yeah, Sandra,
Phil 41:15
yeah, the Suspiria essay. I've only seen the new like the remake that came out what was a couple years ago now and I'll just say you did a very good job of of putting me back into that traumatic se you know of like the mirror the mirror room. You know, dismembered body horror part, which was this like
great juxtaposition, I think with what you're talking about, with with the body in relation to dance and things like that.
Gina Nutt 41:50
Yeah, that scene is so like when I remember being in the theater for that news is seeing new Suspiria in the theater when the scene I described as a dancer, basically being forced to dance by like, a witchy force making her dance and her body's just like breaking. I'll never forget, like being in the theater and just like wilting in my seat, like, this is not, this is just too much too intense. I think you've even watching it at home. I still like. Yeah. But the new the original one's really good, too. It has it has a couple of those very horrifying, just body breaking scenes, too. So I would recommend now and
Ben 42:42
yeah, I don't know. You were kind of talking about a bit before, but you have that essay about the final girl trope and how there's like this expectation that the final survivor is expected to kind of tell her story early in that essay, and again, I think you've talked about this before, there's that scene where the then boyfriend argues that having a violent sexual assault scene in the movie was essential to kind of making its point. And I think so much of this collection feels like a refutation of the idea that violence needs to be kind of seen or expressed directly. And one of the things that you're just so good at is writing absence. And so I'm wondering if you can kind of talk about what it's like to think about writing negative space in essays in order to to, you know, convey meaning or convey feeling without ever saying a thing directly.
Gina Nutt 43:39
I think that's something that's really, it's really important to, to weigh in, on and to, to consider like to think about the possibility like, can you write about something? Can you write about something without showing it? It's almost like asking is a story still a story? If nothing happens, right? Like if it's a character sitting in a room thinking, is that still a story? Could that still be a story? I think it could be. And initially, I think early drafts of the essay you're referencing, where I'm writing about a boyfriend at the time saying we have to see this violence and that expectation of the final girl not only saying her story, but repeating it wanting to press back against that. So earlier drafts of that essay, were a lot fuller and I did write a lot more but then I kind of as I was like thinking about sending it out I was like I don't want this all out there and I think I kind of was like banging my head against the wall like writing more writing less and then finally I was like, Why do I like isn't can I make this like a framing device of the essay? Can I ask this question and make this the essay because right now we have a lot of people writing these essays on unfortunately, and I was like maybe another addition to the conversation can be, you have an option, you can write this absence, you can take these details out. And I think another way that I came to that was I said, Well, you're not explicitly detailing the descriptions of suicide, or trying to weigh why people made that choice. So you can write a lot of things that I think we're, we're conditioned to think, oh, I need to spell all this out all these details. And it's fine to write it. But it's also fine as you revise to, to scale back and say, How can I move through the world with this existing out there? Like, what is what's going to be okay for me in the end? And that's, that's where I landed?
Ben 45:52
Yeah, and I just like, boy, I mean, it's, I think it's what made so many of these essays feel so kind of moving and effective is that like, I'm thinking about, like, the drawers one that it's like, so much of it was about not saying the thing directly. But giving all of these kind of touch points, it's almost like the thing that is underwater is touching all these things above. And we're kind of getting the surface level. And so it's like not until the end, are you able to kind of put all the pieces together and realize what I think is about, I think a lot of the essays do this, where it's like by that it's like right around that kind of final paragraph, you're like, Oh, this is about acts, and that kind of feeling that wave of like, Oh, I've gotten all the kind of feelings and all these kind of moments and scenes around a thing. And suddenly it like, hits you was just like, very, like very impactful, like very emotionally impactful. And I just like a like, how did you do that? Like I, I found myself, I think continually being like, how is that? How is this moment happening? And like, how is this being pulled off? Because I would I would keep getting to that final moment. And just having that like, oh, moment that was like just just very effective. And so how do you think about I guess, writing up to those points, again, without ever saying something directly.
Gina Nutt 47:17
I think a lot in a lot of cases, I ended up writing and then taking things out. So in a lot of cases, I do write the I do say the thing, I do write the, you know, the ghost that's missing, but it gets left on the in some old draft. In addition to like doing the note cards on the wall, I also will print drafts up and I'll cut them up paragraph by paragraph and I'll move pieces around. So in a sense, the book and my writing in a lot of ways does end up genuinely being collage and it's just looking for things to click into place like I wish I had, I feel like I'd write so much faster, I'd get so much more done. If I had like the the secret if I knew the secret to like, oh, this, this is when it's done. But in the end, it ends up being this kind of it is intentional, because I'm moving pieces around and I'm thinking okay, this, there's definitely this arc here. But it's one of those like when you know, you know things, and it's the result of like being like this, isn't it so many times, right? It's the result of printing something up, or looking at a draft and saying this isn't quite right. Like I just have to step away from it for a while. Or I need to take this out or I need to add something in here. Or I need to move and topple this whole thing. Write it backwards. I mean, those are all really like simple sounding, almost like I'd argue like my really critical self says those are like almost hack sounding things to try. But I mean, when I do some of those revision strategies, that's how I tap into things that I hadn't considered before. Or I find Oh, this is actually the pulse of the piece. This is what I'm actually writing about.
Phil 49:13
Yeah, I think I relate to that a lot. Just something that I used to tell students when I was teaching during my MFA is this, like, how much people discredit the visual element of of writing, regardless of whether there's actually any kind of visual they're just being able to see it, whether it be printing it out, putting it up or like like you I also cut up you know, essays and kind of rearrange things and see them in different ways. And, you know, that's for me has always been on the fun parts about it is seeing this kind of what emerges from the surface once you kind of break it apart or like you said, like, write more than you need and then maybe cut off half of it or put it somewhere else. It's a Amazing. I mean, it feels like magic.
Gina Nutt 50:03
And it feels sometimes like, like I said, I'm like, Oh, I feel like such a hack being like, Oh, I just I move stuff. But it's really true. Like when you just print something up and you're like, Okay, well, I killed the tree. So I'm going to force myself to like, move pieces around and just re envision this like, I don't know, it's, it's kind of like, you can worry about it and think, Oh, this is good enough, or you can just like, overhaul it and say, Yeah, I'm just going to re re see this and a new way. It doesn't always work. But when it does, it's quite nice.
Phil 50:40
Was any of the work and the collection and the thinking, thinking back to your, your years in the MFA? I'm always curious, like, one. Did some of this project start back then? And to? If it did, like, what was kind of the reception back then because, you know, I think we can all relate to different workshop experiences where, you know, certain essays just, they're gonna get tore up in the workshop experience when they're like, perfectly fine, you know? And that this has to do with, you know, kind of like the canon of the workshop, like, what's kind of the expectations? What are what are people doing? So I'm curious, like, yeah, what was your general experience in MFA? And like, how did that relate to this project, if it did?
Gina Nutt 51:27
So, so I was in the MFA from the MFA program at Syracuse from 2009 through 2012. I went right after undergrad, and I had done my undergrad there. And so this book, I didn't start this one to like 20 2016. I started this book in 2016. So this was years after the MFA about four years after. And my first collection of poems was my MFA thesis. And I found in general like at the time, though, I did do a lot of like the kind of dreamy writing, I wrote prose poems. That was my whole MFA thesis. And one thing I loved about the program I attended was, we were really encouraged to cross pollinate. So poets could take fiction classes, fiction writers could take poetry classes, I was enrolled in poetry. So I was taking short story classes with George Saunders, I could have taken memoir with Mary Karr. You know, it's, it's really nice that they let you just kind of find your way through it. And they encourage you to not only like, take those classes, but to read beyond. You know, what you're there for. And I love that approach. Because for me, that's the only way I've ever known how to work. So of course, I love it. But I also think it's, it's the way I grow. It's the way I you know, it's the way I thrive is working in different forms. I did take a master with many Bruce Pratt as well. And we did lyric essays with the collage for. So while I wasn't there, for nonfiction, I did get to do I did get to have that experience. And I do remember, like, we snipped up drafts and moved them around. And I remember like my final project for that, that may, Mestre was like, you know, I had all the pieces spread out on the floor. I can't even remember what that essay was about. But I was moving all the pieces around and I guess I carried that. But it would be I would, I would be interested to just like, I don't know, be in a workshop and see what happened to this. Maybe. Maybe not, I don't know, it'd be i i had a good MFA experience. I know that's not the case for everyone. I think too, there's something about it that like by the end of it, everyone's kind of like you have a sense of what some people might say it's almost like a pressure cooker. But I loved like getting reading recommendations. i It's it shaved years off my like, wandering and trying to find you know, more writers who, whose work I would love. I mean, in addition to like, the whole experience, I feel like the reading list I carried away it was just so valuable to me. And it sustains me like knowing I did that, like I got to do that not to be like the kid who never left high school. But uh, you know, it does like that advice like when you hear people say like, it's really hard to keep writing and, but it's really important to keep doing it if you want to, or you can quit if you want to, you know it is nice to have like that sense of perspective. Like, you know, the world is not going to end if I stop writing my world would feel like it's ending, but the world like in the larger sense doesn't hinge on me like in this office doing this. Mind does, but
Ben 55:12
I kind of wanted to go back and just ask this question about. So many of these essays feel really personal. And I think I've been thinking a lot about this in the context of like, creative nonfiction generally. And this idea of like, who gets to tell a story, especially when it's like a family story, or it's a shared experience. There's a there's a scene kind of late in the book, when the mom is cataloging the family's history of suicide after your uncle's killed himself, and I was, I was thinking about that history kind of showing up in that essay. And do you share these essays? And do you talk with you know, your mom about this stuff? And how do you negotiate? You know, you were kind of talking about this before, which is like, how do you share these things with the world? And like, Whose are they to share? And what does that that whole negotiation look like?
Gina Nutt 56:08
Yeah, that's I'm really lucky that I have a very, I have a very supportive family. Like, no one's called me like screaming like, how could you? But I also think the, the dreamy kind of like, we were talking about writing absence, and maybe not going too heavy on the detail. Maybe that gets me a little leeway. I did. So my husband's also a writer. And I think when I was, you know, it was a really early embarrassing draft, but I did share it with him. And I was like, can you just like, tell me if this early draft which had a lot more detail, was like, can you tell me if this like, passes the Mi embarrassing people? sniff test? Like, can you just tell me if this is like, unseemly or just too much or am I like being? Am I just like, gawking? And so I didn't go to all my family and ask permission, or, you know, I imagined I probably, you know, could have. But I was like, I'm just gonna do it and hope. What is it? It's better to? Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.
Ben 57:29
Yeah, I am even like, like, what is a golf test? I love like, I love that as an idea, but like, what is the what does a golf test look
Gina Nutt 57:36
like? I think so. So one thing, one thing I told myself was like, just make the writing really good, like, make it really good. And then they can't be mad. Like, I don't know that if it if that work, but a golf test I had, when I was thinking of golf test, I was thinking like, does it feel like, like, I just am telling all this stuff, and just exuding all this stuff with no self reflection with no sense of myself maybe coming across as not always the best person. You know, like, is there? Are there equal parts like, Oh, these are these family? Read the realities of our family. But also like, these are my realities are things I've experienced, I think when you're willing to lay yourself on the line to like, maybe embarrass yourself a little bit. People tend to be warmer to the, the sharing in that personal sense. I do think it's something that like, if someone came to me, and they said, like, this was too much, it was too personal. I'd certainly apologize for that. But I would never not write something because I was, I was worried I would at least give it a shot. I would at least give it a try. It is hard though, because I think that's a it's a fine line. But I do think like writing, you know, when you take the time and you really mull over an idea, or an experience, you're going to come to a better place, you're going to come to a higher, it's not just going to be Oh, I'm gonna you know, type out all this horrible family stuff. You're hopefully elevating and reaching towards something higher, something more illuminating about people and, you know,
Ben 59:29
ya know, I liked that idea a lot that it's like, what passes the GOC test is less of like, here's all the here's all the stuff my my family has been doing or here's all the stuff that you know is going on, and more of like, here's what this stuff says about some broader idea, whether it be you know, grief or trauma or you know, that if it's plugging into those larger things, then to some degree, it like matters less that it includes these kinds of personal details.
Phil 1:00:02
Well, now that the you know, the book is out in the world. I'm curious, like, what? What are you working on now? Like, is there any kind of new things cooking up and then the slow cooker?
Gina Nutt 1:00:14
It's a slow cooker. All right. It's slow. Um, so the summer I was thinking about sending this one out, I started writing, I was writing some fiction. So we'll see where that goes. I'm hoping for novel. That's the goal isn't a novel. But it will take me so long, like this one took like four or five, you know, well with publication five years. So the idea of a novel is a little daunting. We'll see if the whole prose poem after prose poem, trick works again,
Ben 1:00:55
concept works in a in a novel setting I'm here for I don't think I'll be like taping that
Gina Nutt 1:00:59
one to the wall. At this point. I tried last summer to tape the draft of the novel to the wall. And it was just I was like, This office is way too tiny for this approach. So like, I have a great picture of my cat. My cat and me just, we're just hanging out in this office. And we're both just surrounded by pages. It's pretty great.
Ben 1:01:27
So Gina, I think we're running out of questions. Is there something we haven't asked you that you maybe want to want to mention?
Gina Nutt 1:01:34
Oh, I think we've, I've been really enjoying the conversation and your questions. Yeah, I didn't have anything else in mind to to bring up
Ben 1:01:45
to you. Is there a section of the book that you maybe want to read for us?
Gina Nutt 1:01:52
Let's do one from the IP follows, because I think that's I think we we've agreed that's one of that's one of both of your favorites. So let's go
Ben 1:02:00
with that essay rules. You're not wrong.
Gina Nutt 1:02:02
Okay, good. Let's go with that. Let's do this one. Her boyfriend rummages in the trunk. She lives across the sea in her underwear stretches an arm out the open door. Her hand brushes flowering weeds sprouted from concrete and the lot. And she says it's funny. I used to daydream about being old enough to go on dates. I had this image of myself holding hands with a really cute guy listening to the radio, driving on some pretty road. Up north maybe. And then tracers change colors. It's never about going anywhere. Really. Just having some sort of freedom, I guess.
Ben 1:02:56
Gina, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for great talking to you. It
Gina Nutt 1:03:00
was wonderful to talk with you.
Phil 1:03:02
I guess I actually do have one small little question left. For our for our listeners. What are what's like the Jena night like three horror movies. They should watch that are your favorites, some of your favorites.
Gina Nutt 1:03:18
Okay, so my favorites top three, I would say A Nightmare on Elm Street. Suspiria the Dario Argento is my favorite. But you can you can mix and match with that or the new one. And it follows Nice. So those are my three favorites. And I could go on forever. But we'll we'll do those three.
Ben 1:03:44
That's that's a that's a good lineup.
Phil 1:03:46
This was great. Thank you so much.
Gina Nutt 1:03:48
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, this was fantastic. Your questions were so wonderful.
Ben 1:03:55
Best of luck and listen, when that when that novel finally hits. Call us. We're ready.
Gina Nutt 1:04:02
I'll keep that in mind.
Phil 1:04:24
And that was our conversation with Gina Nutt on her awesome essay collection, night rooms. Man, it was such a good conversation again, just thinking about I think the biggest takeaway for me was this whole call and response kind of conversation around horror and how horror is a is a response to it to an action as opposed to the action itself and how that relates to the personal. That was kind of a big thing I've been thinking a lot about with the conversation
Ben 1:05:00
Yeah, I think my big takeaway is that we should find a way to clip her doing the impersonation of Brad Pitt saying what's in the box and put that online so people can just use it. I think anytime they want to.
Phil 1:05:13
Oh, no, that's gonna be. That's a origin story. original, original podcast.
Ben 1:05:19
Perfect meme content right there. Yeah.
Phil 1:05:21
No, but we just want to thank Gina not again for coming on the show. Really great conversation, really great book. And it is available most places to dollar radio, other retailers. And you can find more of her work in a variety of places online, but an easy way to look. is@gmail.com.
Ben 1:05:47
Yeah, and if you follow us on Twitter, at Orange origin, story underscore, will I think in the in the kind of after this comes out, we'll do a little tweet thread where you can find some of her essays that have been published online. So you can get a sense kind of for how good her stuff is.
Phil 1:06:05
Yeah, and Gina doesn't use social media very often. So we don't have any socials to drop for her. But you can find us at at origin story underscore, or my personal Twitter is at 3d Cisco. And where can they find you,
Ben 1:06:22
Ben? At sad underscore radio underscore, lad. Love that name. Thanks, guys. I feel like I just want to say this one thing, which is sometimes serious people will attack me and I'm just like, Wow, imagine this serious person writing out at sad radio, lad. It, it brings joy to my heart.
Phil 1:06:46
I mean, it's really a power play. Thanks to Ryan Hopper for providing the music for this episode. And thanks to melody Hirsch for doing the awesome cover art. And if you have questions, concerns, ideas. For if you just want to tell us something cool. You can email us at the origin story. pod@gmail.com
Ben 1:07:16
it has to be really cool. I think we'd need to point out that there's a high threshold of cool before you email us. Thank you.
Phil 1:07:24
Yeah, I mean, we were definitely the cool kids back in the day. Keeping that energy going, Wolf but we will catch you all again here soon. On the next interview. Yeah, he's catch
Ben 1:07:38
up. You
