Owen Dennis (Infinity Train) on Making Cartoons for Everyone
Episode Description
Owen Dennis is a writer, producer, voice actor, and storyboard artist who has worked on animated series like the Regular Show, Infinity Train, and Close Enough and movies including The Greatest Ape and Regular Show: The Movie.
We talk about Dennis' frustration over the idea that cartoons are only for kids and pitching complicated shows to studio executives.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
Watch Infinity Train streaming on HBO Max
Follow Owen on Twitter here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:17
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast where we interview creators about where they came from to better understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell. And I'm with my co host, the M Thor. What are we talking about today, Ben?
Ben 0:33
We're talking to Owen Dennis. And he's the creator of a show on that was on HBO Max Infinity Train. It's a it's a show. How do I describe it? Phil? Is it for kids? Is it for adults?
Phil 0:47
I mean, that's kind of the big crux of the conversation. But yeah, it's kind of it's a show that that that bridges that line and asks kind of what? Well, it's a show that's like for everybody, I guess I'd say in the best sense. Like, there's something that like, if you're younger, you can get something out of it. And if you're older, it definitely deals with issues around mental health and depression, divorce, you know, these kind of like more heavy topics that you might not expect, given its kind of bright, colorful, aesthetic.
Ben 1:21
Yeah. And, you know, I think I got pulled into it, I really, you know, had been watching the show for a while and really loved it. And I think I was really drawn into the way that it kind of plays with identity, especially. And I guess, maybe just to tee it up, you know, it's a anthology show that follows a different character in each season. And the kind of gist of it is these people get pulled onto this train that's maybe in another dimension, and have to kind of learn some lessons and grow as a person before they're allowed to leave, which in some cases means I think that they basically never get to leave.
Phil 1:59
Yeah, Ben, was definitely the the Stan before me, so I hopped onto the show after
Ben 2:07
as the as the resident as the resident soy boy.
Phil 2:11
Yeah, the resident cartoon aficionado, Ben Thorpe, we've switched roles, I used to be the anime fanboy growing up and the roles have changed. But you know, I hopped onto it. And it was, it's surprising because as that description suggests, it's a show that has so many different moving parts, so many different characters, environments, cultures, ideas popping off in it, that it was really interesting to see how it changes and evolves, especially between seasons, when it starts falling, making new characters, and things like that. And, you know, that was one of the interesting things talking to Owen Dennis, about the show, is just like, how do you even kind of make that kind of conglomerate, that amalgamation of so many different parts into this kind of very cohesive show in terms of like, how the universe is comprised and things like that?
Ben 3:09
Yeah. And I think we also had a really good, or he had some really good insights on the complications of a show like that when you're trying to pitch it right. Because I think even his work kind of struggling to describe like, yes, it's a you know, it's this show, that's great. It's, you know, it's got a lot of kind of great moving parts, it's really interesting, but it's complicated, and it's doing a lot of different things. And so, he kind of talks about, like, the difficulty of like, well, how do you how do you kind of pitch that to an exec? Or like, how do you make the case that this is something that's important and and kind of worth watching, basically.
Phil 3:44
Yeah. And outside of that, I think, oh, and a lot of great things to say, just about the creative process, and how, you know, I don't think that you're going to anticipate the, the genesis of how this show came to be, and kind of the story One of the stories he tells, that inspired maybe the first kind of ideas around it. So just kind of hearing hearing that and from his his own kind of fun. Storytelling was really interesting. But yeah, I think the biggest takeaway for me in this interview is thinking about how hard it is to to make kind of more mature cartoon cartoons in America given the fact that things like anime which have become these international presence is so so prescient within like most American households, it's weird to me to think that it's so hard to make a show like Infinity Train, and Owen does a good job of breaking down. You know, why, why that is?
Ben 4:53
Right. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I, you know, I have like, it's like, one group of friends who I think watches it when Have cartoons and watch a bunch of anime. But then outside of that, you know, when you try to make a pitch to someone for a show, and you're like, oh, it's animated. The response I always get is like, Oh, I don't know, like, I don't watch that or like I'm not. And so it's like, there is definitely this, this kind of bizarre barrier to entry. I think for people around something that it's like, listen, like, it's great. It has, you know, it has all these adult themes that it is something that you can get something out of, but there is definitely this I think, cultural perception that, you know, cartoons, if it's animated, it's for children,
Phil 5:33
for sure. Yeah. And it's, I think Owen has been talking a lot about that recently on Twitter and things like that, if thinking about pitching animated shows, and, you know, the classic response of like, why isn't it live action, you know, and kind of disregarding the fact that it's an art form. And it could be the story could be best told within the the genre, or the medium that x creator is, is pitching it as right, there's not just an arbitrary decision. So I think we get into all of that in the in the conversation, in addition to a lot of other things. So how about we get to the interview and let everybody hear we got to say, Yeah, let's go. All right, roll the clip.
Ben 6:41
Own Dennis is a writer, producer, voice actor and storyboard artist who has worked on animated series like the regular show, Infinity Train, and close enough, and movies, including the greatest ape and regular show the movie. Oh, and thank you so much for joining us. Good to be here. So and I really loved your show Infinity Train, The Show involves characters from our world getting trapped on a train in an alternate dimension pocket dimension, the train requires that they learn some kind of lesson about themselves before they're allowed to leave. How did you come up with that premise?
Owen Dennis 7:19
I mean, it's kind of funny, because that's just the basics of a story. Like, that's what all every every story is that you go to any story that you can think of that isn't I guess, basically, even, like a slice of life, is basically a character has some issue, and then they realize something about it. And then they go, Oh, wait, that's I should change that. Then that's, that's all stories, events, actually even slice of life stories are that it's like, Hey, I lost my pencil. Thanks for getting my pencil back. You know, that's, that's very simple. So like, you know, it's it was a, it was something where we were sort of trying to figure out like, Well, how do we? What is the purpose of being on this train? What is the meaning of being on this train? What is the metaphor that we're going for? And eventually, we sort of just came around to like that. There's no reason to go beyond the fact that that's, that story already exists. And we should just go with that.
Unknown Speaker 8:21
I'm your conductor. Once you wipe those grubby little papers, you'll probably have a lot of questions like, Where am I? Why am I here? Or snacks provided? I didn't ask that, for those of you talking to me, like I'm there in real life, or not.
Owen Dennis 8:37
So it seemed to fit all the metaphorical stuff we want to do or sort of like, you know, the train is. The train is life, it'll sort of throw certain obstacles and things at you all the time. And you you just have to keep going or until you die. You get better or you die, and then also you die anyway, I guess.
Ben 9:01
Even if you get off you also die.
Owen Dennis 9:03
Yeah, the metaphor metaphor isn't perfect. But yeah,
Ben 9:06
I so I think that that was that leads perfectly, because I think that was one of my questions, which is like, what is it? And you know, what does it represent to you because in a lot of ways, it as you're saying, I think it can stand in as an analogy for life. It can stand in as an analogy for society. It can also stand as a kind of meta narrative way as like an embodiment of narrative structure. So how do you think about it in those ways?
Owen Dennis 9:32
I, I think that that's part of the fun of it is like I like it when people take their own feelings and experiences and sort of put that on to like projected onto the train for what it represents. You know, like we've had times where the train is very much representing gigantic systems that exist in the world. You know, we've had a times when the train represents just sort of like, like the first season, which is just like, you know, I'm, I'm going into a strange new world, but I don't fully understand because my parents are divorcing. So like, I don't understand what's happening, and I just have to keep going and figure it out. You know, like, it's it, it's very, I like to leave it open to interpretation I don't usually get, I don't usually tell people what metaphors we might have been going for, and not in any particular season or story. Because everybody brings their own thing to it, they everybody brings their own thoughts, too. I mean, that's what that's what art is, like artists, and experience between, you know, the piece and the person viewing it. So I want the person viewing it to experience it the most personal way they can. So we rarely get super specific about what it is that we're doing. It's sort of like my I talk, I talk about this quite often whenever people ask me this, but I believe very strongly, and like, you know, death of the author. Just the idea that, you know, my interpretation doesn't matter. Like, in the end, you had this experience, and what you got out of it is what you got out or like, whatever it is that I originally intended might be interesting to you. But it doesn't really matter, because it doesn't change your personal interaction with the piece.
Phil 11:27
Yeah, thinking about thinking about that. One thing that I found pretty fascinating was, you know, the show is an anthology between the different books, and each book is kind of follows a different main character. But even within the individual's seasons, or books, they're essentially each episode is like its own episodic, a world that has its own kind of ecosystem, characters cultures happening. And then, you know, after the first season, each one kind of takes a character that appeared. And in the last season, it makes them kind of like the center, the central heart of the ark. And I'm curious, like, when you were originally coming up with the concept of Infinity Train, was that always the intent that you'd kind of have these, you'd have like, your individual seasons, then you take a character from the previous and try to kind of expand upon the, the world or
Owen Dennis 12:24
it was, it was close to the original intent, like I, when we, when we were making it, when we were making the first 10 episodes, we always assumed is that there were going to be 10 episodes, and that was it. But we built out the whole world. And we knew like how the things worked roughly, and how you know, the story that we're gonna tell, at the same time, as we're doing that, we're like, Oh, I'd be cool. If we could, like do a whole story or something based on this character, oh, well, and then we just sort of move on, right, because we only had 10 episodes. So you have to keep very, very focused. And if you if we had, like, if it was some sort of show that had, like, you know, 50, if we were told, straight out, like, you're gonna get 50 episodes, go do whatever you want. It might have turned into something more traditional, it might have been something that became like, oh, we do a few episodes of tulip and then maybe the next episode, we'll do something just focusing on grace or like, you know, there's, there's all these different, the normal way that you would make a show. But, because we were very limited, because we were told, like you're gonna have 10 episodes. That's what we built the story for. And then at one point, they were like, cool, we were like this. Okay, we'll give you 20 episodes. And we're like, ah, we, we don't Great, thanks. But you know, we only needed 10 I don't know what to what to do. And then we came up with the idea like, well, let's just go all in on this sort of anthology thing. And say, like, Okay, well, the next 10 episodes are going to be a complete story, and then the next steps would be a complete story. And that way, part of it was just a self preservation thing, where it's sort of like, you know, if you only if they only keep giving you 10 episodes, then you only know that there are 10 episodes coming, so that might be it, that might be the last of it. And you never know when you're going to be canceled. So we just sort of kept going with like a well I guess we'll do this one then we'll do this one because this might be the last one and this might be the last one. Okay, well, now this might be like the same thing like parks and rec, I think had that problem a lot. Where if you read some interviews with them, they talked about how like yeah, the end of the season always feels like a really big finale like a really really big finale it's because they were like, we're probably not gonna get another one after this. We had a similar a similar issue.
Ben 14:45
How I guess how stressful was it between I mean, was it like how was it kind of scrambling to create a second season and you know, what was it what was it like with that kind of on an on again, off again, relationship with might get greenlit what might not exist?
Owen Dennis 15:00
After this, yeah, well, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't really a scramble to make to make it like they were sort of like, do you want to do this? And we're like, yeah, just give us like, a little time to think about it and write it. And they were like, okay, so they gave us some time. And we went away for, you know, a weekend and came up with some of the characters, it was one of the things where it's like, you know, each of us had come up with so many ideas and thoughts and things when we were brainstorming the first season, that it wasn't like we were out of things to do, because we were only really had 10 episodes, we definitely had more material in 10 episodes worth of material. So it's basically going through everything that we hadn't been sort of like what's, you know, what's the direction we'd like to go? Because we also thought that would be very jarring for the audience to have a different character every May every season, a different main character that often they never met. So that was actually part of our intent with our second season was really like, Okay, well, you know, tulips gone. She's, she's back on the train spoiler alert for anybody who's listening to this. Spoiler alert, to lips gone, she's back on the train. She's back. She's back home. So we're gonna have this next season take place on the train to love can't get back on the train. She's She's fine. She's She went home. So, but we don't want the audience to be like, but what happened to tulip, I miss her. So we're like, well, let's follow the person who has the same voice actress has to. And, and sort of went with that. And we also, you know, it was also something where we were thinking about various things while we were making it where it's like, can a denizen of the train leave the train? Can this happen? Can that happen? Because we have all these questions ourselves as writers making this world and we're sort of like this, can this happen? I don't know. And then some of them, we sort of like brush aside and go like, don't think about it. And then other ones were like, No, that's actually a very interesting moral question or philosophical question that we could totally get into. And then tulips reflection, character, like she was like, she was perfect for a lot of stuff that we that we wanted to go for. I mean, that's, that's sort of how we work. We work backwards from themes. Usually we go with, like, there's something we want to talk about and get into. And then we go back and find like, what sort of character would actually fit that idea?
Phil 17:25
Interesting. Yeah, I was just, I was talking to Ben, before you came on, I was, like, so fascinated by just how you came up with the individual trains, and whether the process was like, hey, we want to love to experience x part and her emotional arc. And then we're creating a train to to allow that to happen. And I think like I was mentioning the mirror component with with lake in the first season. But then thinking about like, the second season, I found that there was such a the individual trains, I felt like the connection with the emotional arcs of the characters was so much more under the surface and and a great way. And it became even more exciting to think about, like what the next train is going to be. And the characters especially like the animal characters, I don't even know how you came up with things like Alan Dracula, and Toad, and Atticus.
Owen Dennis 18:19
Yeah, yeah, we generally try to work backwards from a theme of some kind that we're thinking about at that particular time. And then think about, like, how do we? Who would best what kind of person would best learn from this? So when I was when I was originally thinking of the Infinity Train, I didn't think of, to look at all really, I was like, yeah, it's a girl, she gets on train, I don't know who she is, as a person, though, I was having a lot of trouble figuring it out. But eventually, these these women from Google came and gave a talk at Cartoon Network. And they started talking about all the feelings that they have and how they would, how they were thinking, how they think, like how they just think, in general. And I was like, oh, that's how I imagined tulips sort of thinking. And then they talked about some of the feelings that they had. And like, that's, those are the feelings that she had. And I was like, oh, so these programmers from Google came over and we're like, Okay, well, I'll make her a programmer. And then I started thinking about like, Okay, well, what's, you know, that's actually like the perfect opposite to what the train is like, the train is just a new experience, every single train car, you have no idea what you're gonna get into. But she from her perspective is like, I want stability, I want things to be the same, and they're not being that way. And so the best way for someone like that, to learn that the other way is good too, is to constantly be put into a situation that is not the same. And so that's 10. Generally how we worked with all the episodes as you put somebody into a situation that would, that will spur change in some way. And with the first season, it was very, like, we were very lesson oriented, I think, because we're still coming off of how Cartoon Network normally did TV shows at the time. And so there was sort of an expected like, okay, so by the end, they say that they have this lesson, then they learned this, and you're like, Okay, fine. So you put in this, you know, that sort of moment, was very much. That's why the first season feels a slightly more episodic, I think it's sort of like, enter a car, leave a car, enter a car, leave a car, and like, like, every episode has that sort of finality to it. Whereas the second, and third seasons, especially, are much more about, you know, there are no actual, like stopping points, just sort of like a constant, a constant feeling of change, a constant feeling of motion.
Ben 20:57
Yeah, and maybe can you talk a little bit about how I guess how you were thinking about making emotional arcs over the course of I think they're about 10? Or is it 10? episodes about 11 minutes long and episodes? And so I How do you think about, you know, coming to a place where you can create this kind of emotional impact over that length, which is, I think, relatively short.
Owen Dennis 21:20
I mean, it's a it's a movie length, that's 110 minutes, you know, so it's really just, you think of the plot of a movie? And what would happen over the course of 110 minutes, and then figure out, where can you put these breaking points? And how would you spare those breaking points. So it's mostly just a movie with 10 chapters. So the only issue being that like, you have to make it exactly 11 minutes. Like that's, that's, that's one of the hard parts, is that because it's for broadcast, you can't go over a couple of seconds here under a couple seconds there or even a minute in either direction. And also, that's how animation contracts work is they usually say like this many minutes per contract. So even for, you know, not even just for the people writing the show, but also for the people that are contracted out in like South Korea, who are like animating it physically. So you end up having to be very, very specific on like, at this point, they will learn this and have this thing happened. And this point is very technical. Even though it's shouldn't feel it shouldn't be so technical, kind of kind of this.
Phil 22:36
Yeah. So like, when you you alluded a bit to Cartoon Network, and kind of how they traditionally wanted more of like a, an arc where the the viewer learn something, by the end. I'm curious what it was like pitching a show, like Infinity Train, which, you know, has all these kind of these elements that are ever changing, right? It's not like a constant storyline, and it's not episodic, I think, in some ways, in the way that maybe is traditional with other shows that are like on Cartoon Network, or, you know, Nickelodeon, or whatever. Yeah, what was that? Like? What was the kind of like, their general read on it? And how was it to pitch
Owen Dennis 23:20
they were they were pretty supportive. It was it's, it was really just a, you know, it's just something that everybody sort of came to understand was not like normally happens. And so be it was also like the first. I think it was, I think it was the first show that Cartoon Network had done that was scripted in almost a decade. You know, at that point in Cartoon Network, everything was the writers come in, and they write an outline. And then they hand to the storyboard artists who do the writing and the drawing of like dialogue and things like that. And so this was the first time that Carson ever had been dealing with a script in like I said, like a decade, I think, I think the last one was like, my life as a teenage robot or something. Might have been might have been the last one was something something, something in there. I don't quote me on that. Record me talk well, yeah. But it had been it had been quite a while. So it was, it was there weren't really any. And I had never written scripts and you know, most of us, I had always done board script scripting through with whiteboarding. So it was all a whole bunch of like learning new things and being like, oh, yeah, this you have to keep this page limit or you have to like this. This much space on a page for this particular kind of dialogue is going to take this long and it becomes it was just it was a large learning experience and Cartoon Network was also learning how to deal with that at the same time. So like, all of us were kind of like
Ben 24:58
I'm maybe on the pitching front and wondering where you can talk about, you know, obviously the show feels like, it resonated with me as an adult person. It has a lot of adult themes in it. But you know, what kind of space is occupied? And like, Who is it for? Is this a kid show show for adults? How do you think about that? Audience?
Owen Dennis 25:18
I don't care. That's that's the thing is like, people when you go in, there's often this like, and so who's the audience for? Who do you do you want this? This is for children. And this is for adults. What do you want? And I'm like, No, anybody can watch this. I don't care. Like I. I feel like when, when I was a kid, things were like what counted as something that was for children. And what counted as something that was not for children was a lot more gray than it is now. There were the obvious things was like, this is transformers. This is, uh, whatever. This is a show that's here to sell toys. Right? But then, you know, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Is that a children's movie? Or not? You know, like, it's, it's a movie with a whole lot of sexiness in it. It's a movie with people who like melt is speaking of people who are melting Indiana Jones, is that a children's movie? Or not? You know, there's, and these are all movies that, you know, you just go to the library and and check out you know, so I would I would watch Indiana Jones at the end of Indiana Jones. A man's face melts off graphically. And supposed to be realistic. And another person's head explodes people get shot. There's a lot of blood move on a temple of doom. It's only blood, like this. All all these all these movies that people go like, yeah, that's, you know, I'm sure a kid can watch that. Sure. And now people are still like, Yeah, I had let my kid watch Indiana Jones. Sure. Because it's like grandfathered in or something. Because they saw it when they were a kid. But they wouldn't allow some kid to see it now. And so there's always this, like, you know, I don't fully buy into the idea that one piece of media is particularly for one kind of person. And one is not, you know, and especially because I even remember that, like, you know, like, when I was a kid also, like, I, where I grew up was rural Minnesota. So if I as like a white kid was into rap music or something. People were like, no, no, that's not okay. That's not for you. And it's like, it's music. Like, it's music. How can you possibly say to somebody like, No, you can't listen to that music? Because it's just not for you. And you can't just enjoy a piece of art from anybody. Like that's, it's, it's insane. So I just don't buy into the idea of any of that.
Ben 28:00
Yeah, and I wonder, does that make it hard? Like our studios thinking about it in that way? Where it's like, okay,
Owen Dennis 28:05
yes, they are. Studios, definitely think of it that way. So it's very, it's difficult. Especially if you want to do something that is not immediately obvious as something that kids can watch. So, if you were to if you think about Indiana welders, I'll just keep using the Indiana Jones example. If you were to think about Indiana Jones, the original one. And you said, okay, so I want to make this movie, it's about a guy with a whip, and he kills Nazis. At the end of it, their heads explode. Would you say? Yeah, that sounds like something kids will watch? No, absolutely not. You'd be like, oh, whoa, okay, can we could we pull it back a little bit? That's a bit much. And so, you know, that can be a little, a little hard. So it's the same thing. Now, if you're pitching something, and no one's ever seen it or heard of it, and you say something that might have something like that. So like, for example, if a train if I say like, yeah, and then we shoot the dog with a gun, and the dog, the dog turns into this horrible Roach monster that tries to suck the soul out of our main character. And I mean, does that immediately strike you as like, yeah, children's stuff? Like, not exactly. It can be. It might not be what's in that weird sort of gray zone, you know? So, yeah, it's, there's always an issue when pitching to anybody, especially if you have no drawings. Like if you do have drawings, that helps. But if you have no drawings, it's even harder. Because if you have drawings, when you're talking about animation, you're talking about something that's abstracted, right? All animation is an abstraction. So if you describe some scene or something to somebody, they're going to have have a completely different version in their head of what it looks like. And if you happen to be talking to a person that's going to think the worst possible outcome, they're going to be like, Oh my god, some guy's head is going to explode. That means the guts are gonna fly all over the camera. It's gonna drip down on the screen. This is like rated X stuff. And then, like, what he's gonna explode as his dick gonna fall out and like, hit the camera or something like, I don't know, I guess like, who knows. And you know, it freaks people out. So you have to kind of go in with like, some drawings to be like, Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. See how the dog is cute. Therefore, therefore, yeah, we're talking about a roach animal or something sucking the life out of somebody. But, you know, it's, it's cute, maybe. And then you sort of get in there and make whatever you want. After you get it,
Phil 30:50
get your foot in the door. And then you know, just go gung ho, no, I like when you when what happened to Atticus was harrowing, for one. So. But, but, yeah, going back to your point about, you know, growing up, how there was much more of a gray area, I feel, you know, I'm, I'm 29. And I kind of grew up, you know, like, watching cartoons in the late, late, late 90s, early 2000s. And it just seems like like you said, back then there was so much more room for like, these different types of shows, whether it be like I think of like, as told by ginger, or any of the other kinds of cartoons that maybe we're anime or like American, like TNT and that kind of stuff like that.
Owen Dennis 31:34
That's yeah, that's the other thing is that that time period is when a lot more anime started coming over, because like Toonami, and stuff, so that became even more like gray and weird. And like, kids are watching movies and TV shows and stuff that in Japan or like, for adults are teens and stuff. But then like, over here is like eight year olds being like, Yeah, I can't think of example, the time I have to kill him, whatever.
Phil 31:57
Well, it's just weird that that this mentality that this that studios have, like it isn't marketable or sellable, or whatever, whatever they're saying in terms of like these more, you know, darker, quote, unquote, or more emotional, animated television shows, when there's so many clear examples of them being successful. Right. And I'm wondering, like, Why do you think that has, that mentality has persisted?
Owen Dennis 32:27
Well, I mean, that was in the US that started with, I believe it was Disney specifically was pushing for, like animation to be for kids. And he pushed that and Disney was successful at it. He tried talking about like, the man does need the man. Not the company right here. Right? Not the not the company that owns all of us. Now, Disney, the man he originally was pushing for if and this is if I'm getting my history, right, again, don't direct your comments that may direct them at whoever, you know, whatever website we're on right now. But he specifically thought that there was more money to be made by making cartoons more child friendly. And he started making those decisions with Fantasia, I believe some of the original for example, in the original Fantasia like he was he was pushing and Fantasia, which was really cool. But he still was pulling back on a lot of things. So like the original Fantasia, the horse people, it's a horse person called centaur, right? Centaur. Thank you. Yes. Center, the the centers and that were originally all topless. You know, and it was it was a late decision to be like, well, let's, let's put like shells on them or something. And so like, they there were these moments where Disney sort of was like, we could try pushing this new direction. But we want to make this accessible like children, children, children, so he put a real push on children. Then it started getting into the Hanna Barbera stuff in like the 60s and 70s. Where it was just sort of like the cheap animation was like the cheapest thing you could do. So it was like the cheapest thing thrown out to kids or whatever in the morning. And eventually you get into the 80s and stuff where it was still the cheapest things to do. But it was exported to Japan to be made and animated and stuff. But that was like a toy thing based off of what happened with Star Wars. What like when they saw that, oh, kids watched Star Wars. And then they bought a bunch of toys. Oh, there's a whole bunch of money that can be made if you make a piece of media and then specifically try to tie it in with products and merchandise. And then you know, it just kind of that's how it goes. I mean, it's it just sort of keeps going because sometimes people seem to have the assumption where it's like, yeah, that that cartoon that was made in the 80s right and then You know, you think it like five years later? Oh, well, why don't they try it now? Well, it's because the people that were in charge 1985 are still in charge through like, 2007. You know? So it's, there's a long tail on like, because because these decisions aren't made by like a computer that says, hey, the ratings for this thing are this, they're made by people that have taste or don't have taste. They say, and they say, I want to make this thing, or I don't want to make this thing. And there's always going to be some amount of like, oh, is this going to be commercially successful, if it is not commercially successful, I might lose my job. Like, and there's that sort of that sort of play is going on with the executives and stuff. And so they're always sort of nervous about what's going to happen with them, like they don't have, there's no executive union, that's going to be like, No, you don't get to lose your job, because the union, you know. So it just, it keeps persisting. Because you have people to get into that position, and then they're there for a while. And they're told at some point, like, hey, that kind of thing doesn't work. And then they go, okay, and that just sort of becomes law in their head. And then it continues. And then sometimes someone will be like, Oh, we want to try this new thing, and they try it out. And then they don't really put any, like money into it, because they're gonna nervous about it. And it becomes this thing is like, well see, there was that was a flop, so it's proves proves it, and just sort of a thing that just loops and loops and loops. I would say that is very clear, however, that recently, that attitude is changing. It is very clear that it was changing. Specifically, because of things like, like, Netflix sort of become like a new Toonami in a way, where it's like Netflix has all these, these animes and stuff on there now, and they're starting to realize, like, oh, there's like a very specific audience for this. And at this point, media has also become much more
specific, like they, it's not as broad as it used to be. So you end up with the companies doing like some of these micro targeting and things like, oh, this show will end up being good for this age of person in the Midwest, you know, and like build, like, super targeted on that kind of thing. And so you end up with things that are a lot more niche being made now, because all these companies are trying to just increase how much stuff they have on their platforms. At the same time. You have a lot of executives that, you know, are now our age, you know, like, I'm, I'm 34. So like, at this point, I've met executives that sometimes are younger than me. And I've met executives that are of the same age as me. And I've, of course, obviously have, of course, many executives who are older than me, but there's a new group coming through that is starting to be like, Why don't we try this thing, hey, I have an idea to try this thing out. And everybody's trying to make their mark. And so people are starting to push into that direction, because you end up with people like me, who grew up with like video games, as video games that are basically movies, you know, at this point, and like, watching a wide variety of, of things. You know, I didn't just like my parents talk about how they grew up with like five channels. I didn't grow up with five channels, I grew up with hundreds, you know, and and so there's just a larger people have a much larger palette than they used to. And so I think that's starting to be recognized by studios. Definitely, with some of the conversations I've had with them. I think it's I think it's coming
Ben 38:37
here within I guess, within the context of all of that stuff that you just said, Where is Infinity Train right now? What do you mean? Like what, you know, my understanding is that HBO Max has not picked it up or not renewed it for a new season where things moving forward.
Owen Dennis 38:57
As far as Infinity Train goes, it's cancelled. Like there's there's nothing else to it. The issue that ended up happening with Infinity Train, I think, is that it just, you know, it was the wrong time. Like Infinity Train was supposed to come out on HBO Max in the first place. But that was before. It was a Trump Trump like stopped the merger between 18 T and Warner. So whatever their streaming service was going to be, couldn't be made for like two years. And so our show was intended to be on a streaming platform in the first place. It was never supposed to be on Cartoon Network. And so then then everything started changing hands and the merger happened and some, like basically every person that I know of Cartoon Network is fired. Like just thrown out, and then you know, it's you've got a bunch of people that aren't real We attached to the show that are like, what's the show at some show about trains? I don't know, I don't know. And then they just canceled, because like, no one has an amount because that again, these things aren't actually based on numbers. They're based on emotional attachment. It's based on an executive or something wanting to make more. They will say that it's about numbers, but it's not built. That's it's more of a it's that's it sort of used to justify whatever the decision is, but the decision in the first place is always, it's always got. So within any train, you know, it's canceled, because it's I think, it's because it got caught up in this big, crazy shifting, gigantic conglomerate thing. At the same time, like, I don't think it's, I don't think it's dead at the same time. Like, it's this weird thing where I'm like, emotionally, I'm in this weird spot where I'm like grieving, and I already I already grieved, right, I already grieved. And then the fourth season came out, and I had to re grieve, because all the fans suddenly had to learn that this was the last of it. And you know, I wasn't allowed to say that it was the last time that I had to wait until there was like an official announcement. So I had the grieving process, and I started getting over it, and then all the fans started to experience it. And now I have to like go through the whole process again. And it's really it's it's tough, it's emotionally exhausting. But, you know, I think it's very clear that like, nothing ever seems to die anymore. Like, like, I'm I'm surprised. We're not seeing like Mrs. Colombo reboots and stuff like that, like, companies are mining so hard for IP. That it's just like, how could they, you know, there's always going to be some ability to reboot something or bring it back. So I view it as like, yeah. Okay, the show's canceled. Maybe in 10 years? I'll make it more or something. I don't know. But no, that's where it is.
Phil 42:16
I'm curious with I read a quote from you about your because you you lived in China for a while. And you are talking about being on the plane, I think it was and falling asleep and waking up and kind of being in this this moment of like, where am I and everybody's looking at their their screens. And that in some ways might have influenced this idea of like having these train cars for Infinity Train these different train cars. And I'm wondering if you could kind of like put us into that, that headspace your when and and your time and China like what was that? What was that part of your life, that journey you're taking to China and in that specific moment.
Owen Dennis 43:07
So I used to be an English teacher in China. The way that happened was, I was in college. And I was like, really, really burned out. I was like working all the time. And it was just like, animating all the time. And I was completely burned out. And I couldn't I just couldn't take it anymore. So I was lying on the floor of my apartment, crying with ants, ants crawling all over me. Because we had an ant problem. So answer crawling all over me. And I was like, I was like calling my parents and being like, I hate this. This is like my junior year of college. I was like, I hate this. Everything sucks. And they were like, well just go do something completely different, like do a completely different thing that has nothing to do with what you are doing right now. And that'll help you and my mom in the 70s and had been she'd been working she worked in Yellowstone as I think a house house cleaner or like in the kitchen or something in Yellowstone. And so I was like okay, well I'll just go do that. And then I did. And so I went, I went to Yellowstone, where I met a bunch of students from China and Yellowstone is really you know, it's a it's an easy way to get a place to live and make some money and you know, for like a summer so it was common to have a lot of people come from overseas to just do this for you know, a couple of months and then maybe they'll like drive around the US and then they'll go home, which is just a great way to do like a vacation kinda. So I met a bunch of students from China, and they were like, We really liked the way that you explain English words to us. Like, your definitions are really good. And I was like, alright. And they're like, You should go be an English teacher. And I was like, That's not. That's not how it works. And then I researched it. And turns out, that's exactly how it works. At the time, at least in China, all you had to do was have a four year degree of some kind, any kind. You have to have been a native born person in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or the UK. So someplace that speaks English natively. And you had to pass a two week course on how to be an English teacher. So I did the two week course, over in China, and then I was put into this school. And so I was teaching in China for several years, several years, three years. It's an exact number. I was teaching there for three years. And it was, it was a really big experience. Like it was a very, you know, mind opening experience, like you don't realize that you're in a culture until you're no longer in the culture. So, you know, I didn't, I always thought like, Oh, I thought, like, when I met those students from China, I was like, Oh, they're kind of intriguing. I don't know. They're kind of all kind of on. And they're very interesting people, I don't know. And then when I went there, I was like, Oh, okay. There's just this just straight up. This is a cultural thing, like, whatever it was, that I saw my friend doing was like, just sort of a cultural thing. And then when I went there, I was like, Oh, it's this is this is not just my friend who was doing this. This is like, his, this is a whole culture. And I realize, you know, I started realizing, like, Oh, I'm, I'm American. Like, you'd sometimes you don't realize like, Oh, I'm, I am definitely an American. And I had no idea what that meant, until I went someplace and lived there for a while. And not just like, visit, I mean, like, live there and be there. I had no idea what that meant until I until I did that. And so I would sometimes fly. Once, once. Every summer, I would fly home to America. And so I got on this plane. And I started flying, there's this big part of the ocean that's very, very quiet. There's just nothing there. It's completely silent. And there's also no turbulence, there's none because there's nothing out there. There's just this big plane of water.
And so I had fallen asleep. And I'd woken up right in that particular moment. When we're in this big, quiet part of the ocean, I looked around, and I was surrounded by people that were like, staring into TV screens, or were asleep or something. And I was like, it was just a small moment of like, whoa, whoa, what's going on? And looking around and being like, oh, yeah, that's a you know, and that's a sort of scary, scary feeling that he had being someplace that you're not expecting a don't understand what it is.
Just kind of my whole experience in China really. And so, I was I just tried to sort of capture that idea in that moment of like waking up in an unexpected place where you don't know what to do, you don't understand. And you have to get out. But you don't know how long it's gonna take. You don't know anything about anything. Because also like when I first when I first went to China, I didn't know how to speak Chinese. I went to China. I knew how to say one thing in Chinese. I didn't even I didn't even look up how to say hello. Before I went to China, that's how stupid it was. I didn't even look at how to say hello, I knew how to say one thing in Chinese. And it was to impress a girl who was speaking Chinese who was Chinese. And it was Wadjet ne hunker I was just means I think you're cute. And as the only only Chinese that I knew when I went to China, which again, I do not recommend that I would recommend but if you ever decide to live in another country, maybe at least learn a little more than
Ben 49:31
that's so funny. I so I did a an exchange here in Germany and it was a similar thing where it was like, went with zero prep should have gone with a whole bunch of prep and then got there and I was like, I have made a series of very critical errors that have gotten me to this place and I guess I just have to like a I'm trapped in this place for like, at least a year. Guess I just gotta figure out the rules and hope that things work out.
Owen Dennis 49:57
Yep, that's that's that's basically it. exactly what happens and wouldn't change a bit of it. I'm really glad that I experienced
Ben 50:08
this. This is an endorsement for traveling abroad. All right, cool, cool, cool, cool.
Owen Dennis 50:11
Yes, you should go go travel. It's fun. It's good for you.
Ben 50:18
One of the things that you mentioned before that I'm kind of curious about is like, maybe you can talk about your relationship to video games. I had kind of seen in an interview that Ashley Johnson who plays tulip and mirror tulip, the voice of you kind of came to her through the last of us. And so yeah, maybe you just want to talk about maybe growing up, you know, what was your relationship to things like video games, and how does something like that play into the shows that you make,
Owen Dennis 50:47
I remember the first computer that we got, which seems like an unusual thing to have a memory of like, I feel like at this point, everybody who is, you know, in the US, the average person will have some computer in their house already, or a smartphone or something like that. So the day you're born, you already have a computer. But I do remember, when the first time that we ever had a computer in our house, I was want to say like four or five, something like that. And my dad bought a computer and it had dos on it. And there were some games on it that were like, like, there were some games on it that were like these very simple, sort of adventure point and click games, there's one called things called like a prisoner or something. But I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't read. So So So what I would do is I try to play these adventure point and click games where you had to read and learn things from reading. And I couldn't. So what I would do is I'd be like clicking, and trying to get further through this game and just sort of hoping that I clicked the right spot on the screen somewhere. And then that was sort of my early introduction to like games and stuff was that it's always a mystery, I cannot read it, I don't know what's going to happen. So just going into it completely blind, and then just hoping that whatever it is sort of works out. So that was a big one. I remember watching my mom play mist when I was a little kid. And my mom was really into mist. She, she loved it. And so I'd watch her and it was it was this eerie sort of location, like mist is a very eerie game. There's nobody around just these still pictures of 3d environments that you sort of clicked through. And I just remember, like, my mom was into adventure games, too. So like my mom was into, that's why I would have that's why I played it when I was like four or five is because you know, my mom was getting these games and playing them. So I play mist I played King's Quest, unlike these various games that were just adventure games that often had a whole lot of reading that I could not do. And I remember getting a little older, and realizing that I knew how to read. So I could probably try them again. So I tried them again, and they were a lot easier. First off, when you can read. And you know, that was just like that was sort of the sort of games that I got into was like these very point and click adventure games, because they also were just the at the time, there were the most beautiful games that you could see, like now, if you go into like any sort of big triple A game, all the graphics are like this incredible real time 3d, whatever. But the time, if you want 3d, it had to be a pre rendered image that you could just look at, and it was still. And if you wanted graphics that moved around, they were pixel graphics, or, you know, they were very, they were just sprites. And so you couldn't really, it wasn't like this beautiful image to just like absorb as a piece of art, you know. So what you can do now with these big triple A games, but the time if you want to just absorb an image and absorb the feeling and the tone and everything about it as just a piece of art, it would have to be in a point and click adventure game. So I just got really into them. And I was really into like 3d Three 3d modeling and rendering and things like that when I was a teenager, which again, all this sounds like I keep saying like at the time, but it is, you know, I was I was I was 12 years old and rural Minnesota in the early 2000s. There weren't really any 3d schools like you couldn't you couldn't learn how to do 3d stuff by going on the internet and going like oh yeah, I'll just use this program and whatever. It was like my dad had a go to to the store, and pick out a piece of 3d software that looked like it would probably be fine. And would work. And then I'd use that. And that was that was it. That's, that's how I, that's how I learned anything having to do with 3d. So it was just a, I really wanted to go into like 3d animation and 3d graphics and stuff, because at the time, it was this incredibly new, like art form that everybody's really into. Whereas, like, have you seen this movie is called the matrix, they used computers in it, and you're like, Whoa,
or like, you know, the Pixar movies. And like, all these movies started becoming 3d For the first time. And that was like this really cool, brand new thing. And so it was a very inspiring time to like, do that sort of stuff. And so that, all those sorts of things sort of combined into like, Oh, I love video games, Oh, I love this 3d stuff. Oh, I love making making levels in like half life, or like Counter Strike or like Unreal, Unreal Tournament, like things like that you'd like make levels and 3d and like it was, you know, it was a fun, very experimental thing. But all had to be figured out on my own. Because there just weren't any. There was no way to learn. Like it was a book maybe. But it was specific to whatever program you've that person had, or something was very, it was it was difficult. But that's that's generally how I got into animation stuff in the first place.
Phil 56:29
Again, like another interview, I was reading of yours, you were talking about mist and point and click adventure games. And I just feel like there's such a point of DNA from that in the concept of Infinity Train of you talking about like drying rooms on an index cards, and, you know, you'd like click a door and go into the next one. And I feel like that's in a very small kind of way. Like that is kind of like how Infinity Train operates. Like you're going into these different rooms, there's a task that needs to be fulfilled in order to progress. And it's interesting, just thinking about how those things from way back when you're a kid can so easily, you know, map themselves into the things that we're creating later on.
Owen Dennis 57:15
Yeah, it's, it's funny, because I think about like, I have a friend who has a daughter and she's sometimes like her the way she does, like pretend stuff that she pretends to be like a YouTuber, where she's like, talking to the camera, and like, showing off some soap or something that she has. And like, so whenever is the she starts making stuff professionally, or something, you know, in 1020 years. That's probably the sort of things that are going to inspire that person, just like when I was a kid, I was like, Yeah, I'm really into these point and click games. So I would make point and click games out of index cards that I drew pictures on, you know, it's the same sort of like, you know, you see it, you do it, and then it just becomes sort of, like, ingrained in your soul.
Phil 58:01
Yeah, what was it? Like? You know, Ben, Ben and I were both writers. And we, you know, we collaborate and other things besides this podcast, and something that I was interested in, in talking to you about is thinking about an Infinity Train, and especially Book One, it feels at least, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like it's such a deeply personal project. And I'm wondering what it was, like, you know, from the conception of it, you know, sharing that vision with the team that you ended up assembling what was that process like, kind of showing this very deeply personal project, and then translating it into something that can be a collaborative thing that can be ripped upon and expanded upon?
Owen Dennis 58:51
Well, it helps just going into any project being like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Just write a listen to what other people are gonna say. That's, that's, that's a, that's a big part of it. A big part of is a big part of it. That's funny. A big part of it is listening, just listening to people and making sure that the people who are in the room are people that are empathetic, who are I mean, empathy. Empathy is like a big one, who are imaginative, empathetic, and often, you know, you want to make sure that they have the experiences that these characters have had. You know, if you're trying to be truthful, you had has to come from a place of truth. And, you know, I didn't personally like my parents did not get divorced. They didn't get divorced. They're fine. Whatever. However, I knew a lot of kids growing up who did like almost half of my friends when I was a kid, their parents were either divorced by the time that I knew them or they got divorced. While I knew them And our house was often used as a place where they would go when things were bad at their house. So, I learned a lot about the feelings because I, these were feelings that I didn't have, but I was watching my friends have these feelings. And so it was a lot of like learning to understand, like, what is happening with them? Why are they thinking what they're thinking, doing what they're doing. And so, when making a show, it's important that you say, these sorts of experiences, and you're like, these are the experiences that I had. These are the experiences of the emotions that I remember having. What did you feel and remember, and so, you know, on our on our show, we have two of our writers had parents who had gotten divorced. And they were very, they were very specific on saying, like, well, this is, this is what I was feeling, this is what I was like, it was a very raw thing for them to write the show. So they're like, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I was feeling this is, these are some experiences that happened. While that was happening. And, you know, it's really just say, like, Okay, I have an idea for a show, it's about this thing, I might not have enough experience to do this. So I need to talk to people who do, and get them involved as much as I can, in the process. So that's, that's what I did. It's similar to like, you know, in in later seasons, we also made sure to have like, consultants on and stuff for things that we, you know, it would be like, I don't have this experience, I don't have whatever this is that might be needed in this in this season. So we made sure to always include like a part in the budget that was like, hey, we need people to come in and help us, because we have our main writing people, but we don't all have the same, we might not have this experience that we're writing about. So we need people to come in and help and do this. And so that was that was kind of how we did it. We're just made sure that whoever was writing it and doing it, experienced it. In some, in some degree.
Ben 1:02:19
I'm kind of curious about kind of the relationship that you have with, I guess fans are like the fandom it seems like it's a show that has people who feel really passionately about it. And so I'm kind of wondering what that's like. And also, I think you've kind of even touched on it before this idea of like, that it's almost like people have these feelings about the show, and then kind of bring them back to you. And so like, what is that relationship? Like? Or what does that experience like?
Owen Dennis 1:02:49
It's, um, it's, it's, it's very strange, it is a very unusual experience. It's, there aren't, it's not often when somebody just like if you're, if you're just a normal person, right, and you work at a normal restaurant, or like, whatever, it's not normal for you to get emails from people that were at the restaurant, that then say, you know, what, your food was so meaningful to me. And I remember experiencing everything that happened with this food when I was a kid. And so it just was extremely meaningful to me. And, you know, I just want you to know, and like, and like going on long descriptions of everything that has ever happened to them. That's like this emotional, torturous thing. And being like, your show means so much to me, your food means so much to me. I mean, that's what the but that's what happens is people say, like, these really long, wonderful things, and I totally thank them. And it's so nice that as I said, you know, I want art to the art that I'm making to, you know, connect with people and it's wonderful that it's connected to them. But it is an odd sort of relationship that you have to it just takes time to get used to. I generally try to keep people at a certain amount of distance. Because I've seen many a show creator crash and burn when they got too involved with fans. And it's purely a professional thing. Like I don't, for example, I never say the name of my wife anywhere. I took her down from every single piece of media that I had, like I you know, just because I don't want anyone to like bother her over things. I I've seen people have really strange ideas about what their relation Ship is with, with show creators some times where it's that sort of parasocial thing. Where it's like, they seem to have a very different understanding of what the relationship is between fan and creator than the Creator would have. You know, and it's, I understand why those things happen. And so I try to be as like, you know, open as I can, and like not, not put anyone down for having those sorts of feelings or things like that. But it is a very complex relationship that you're not always prepared for, because that's the like, I was really lucky that I worked on regular show for a few years to sort of get used to the idea of people contacting me about stuff about like, whatever, you know, about like, some relationship between some character like, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I sort of got used to it to a degree, but then when the show sort of blew up, it's just like, it's really weird that you can look up your name on the internet and see 1000s of people talking about you. You know, that's a very, very strange position to be in, and it can really, really mess with you. And it has, it has messed with me, it's really, it's made me sometimes it's really just made me like completely freak out. Like, I'll just be in my house. And I'll just have like this sort of, like anxiety attack, knowing that, like, there was this one random person that was saying something really weird about me, and like someone else responded to them was like, Oh, he really did that, or like, whatever it is. And so it ends up with this weird. So that's often you know, I take a break whenever I realized that's happening. I like do a whole purge. And I go like, alright, shutting down everything for like a week. But it really it really can, can mess with your brain.
Phil 1:07:11
Yeah, I think I was reading through your AMA on Reddit, when season four came out. And I think you you just do a really good job of, you know, because like Ben said, so many of the fans have all these different theories and ideas, and potential potentialities that the show could go in. And I think you do a great job of like humoring those, but not kind of, you know, reveling them reveling in them for too long. And well, and I'm just curious, I'm sure you learned so much from making the show, I'm sure, like every episode brought some new lesson. But what do you think now that the show is at its conclusion? Like, what something that you're really taking away from it from, from finishing and, or one that you're thinking about right now.
Owen Dennis 1:08:06
It's usually the responsibility of it. Like, when you're, and I also thought this when we were making it, but I still think about it now, which is just like, when you are someone who is making a piece of media, whatever it is, whether it's just an image, whether it's a piece of writing a piece of music, anything. Other people are going to see it, they're going to see it, and they're going to take something away from it. So whatever it is that you're doing, you better make sure that it's worthwhile. And that whatever it is that you're saying is something that, you know, isn't bad. Like, don't don't hurt people. You know, that's basically that's basically it. Like, if what you're saying, is going to intentionally cause harm on somebody. Just don't do it. You know, because there's really no reason to do that, except to somehow, like, boost yourself or make yourself better. And so I've, you know, if you follow my Twitter, I think people would definitely know that, like, I delete tweets all the time. And it's because that's what happens, I'll say something I'll be like, That's not actually helping anything for anybody. And I'll just delete it. I delete. You know, I delete all of my Twitter, like, once a year, because I'm like, you know, doesn't matter. All these things don't matter. So yeah, it's mostly just the responsibility of like, whatever it is that I'm making. Like with Infinity Train stuff, like it's going to be seen by millions of people. So I better make sure that whatever I'm saying is worthwhile.
Ben 1:09:52
Yeah. Is there something we're not asking you about, you know, the show or kind of your life as a crew later, that is something maybe you want to touch on.
Owen Dennis 1:10:05
Not that I can think of I mean that I think there is a general a couple of things that I always wish is that people understood that the show creator, is really just one part of the whole thing. It's yeah, I came up with the seed of an idea. And I oversaw and I helped things happen, but it's a very, very collaborative thing. And it's not, people often will just give all the credit to some show creator. And it's like, it's not, you know, it's, it's, it's everybody else who worked on the show that makes it what it is, because they're all putting their collective brains, and they're working on this thing and bringing their own truth to it. So this idea that it all comes from some genius, singular vision is absolutely wrong. And also that, you know, show creators and the show runners and all those sorts of people, they're all They're all just people. And they're people like anybody, like I grew up in a rural part of Minnesota. And then eventually, I was able to move to Los Angeles. And eventually I was able to make a TV show. Like, there's no, like, if you're some kid who's in rural Wisconsin, or HERL, Minnesota or something, there's, there's a path you can you can go do this thing, it's going to have a lot of obstacles, and every obstacle for every person is going to be very different. And some people will have more than others. But it's not. I think sometimes people forget that. Whoever it is they're talking to has a whole past and has a whole life before the moment that they met them. You know. And everyone's just a person, like I view that. That's that's, that might or might not have been a problem occasionally when I've worked for people is that I view people above me as like, you're just a guy versus people below me is the same. Like you're just some guy, no matter how famous they are. So I would say, you know, people, just people, like just keep that in mind when you're talking to somebody online. You know. That's all
Phil 1:12:27
well, I think that's, that's everything that we've got. Ben, did you have anything else? But
Ben 1:12:32
that's I'm tapped out. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Phil 1:12:38
This is really fun.
Owen Dennis 1:12:39
Sure. A problem? Yeah, I liked it. Nice.
Ben 1:12:43
Okay, yeah. Hey, thanks, everybody for listening. That was our conversation with Owen, Dennis. Phil. Yeah, I think I guess I've been thinking about, like, this was a great conversation to have almost, you know, thinking about the relationship Owen has to the show. And I think you can kind of hear him that in a lot of ways, it's like, still kind of raw that he's like, almost, in some ways, like, saying goodbye to the show.
Phil 1:13:34
Yeah. And there is a lot to think about in terms of, you know, the public public's response to his show, like, I want to talk a lot about like, fan response, and, you know, making sure to have some kind of distance between fans while also still engaging, but also just, like, one thing that I that I always struggle with is my response to people's response to my work, you know, and like, like, the fact that it's out there, and what do you do with it? Or like, what if, what if you have an idea that you weren't able to, to fully complete? Like, maybe you started getting something out there? You know, how do you move forward and I love the part we're always talking about how, you know, like, in this day and age, not everything, like nothing really dies you know, like there's there's always a chance for something to come back, and maybe in a new form. And if anything, I'm just interested to see if Infinity Train were to come back or whatever. Oh, when does next to see what kinds of inventive world he's able to spin up in relation to again, dislike the the emotional through line, and the show is so unexpected when you're just looking at the images and that I think is one of the benefits of animation that you don't In the same way in live action, so I'm hoping we get more shows like Infinity Train, whether it's continuous somewhere else, or we get something new.
Ben 1:15:09
Yeah. And I think just like this idea that he touches on of, of a show like this that is really personal people end up having really personal reactions to it. And that it's like hard to disentangle, you know, people's relationship to a work of art you have created, and also people's relationship to you personally. And that, like those boundary lines, I think can get crossed, and how important it is, you know, to kind of lay lay a boundary down right to be like, I am not, there's, like, I am a person that is independent from this thing, despite having created it is really interesting, and I think is like a broader conversation that I think a lot of both kind of artists and people who are just online in general have right where it's like, oh, how do you how do you disentangle yourself from the things that you've created?
Phil 1:15:59
For sure. So you can find O N at Twitter, at O N with five years, Dennis, and you can stream Infinity Train on HBO Max season four, it just came out back in April. So stream it, you know, this show is still kind of popping off. So there's still there's still hope that it can be revived. So you know, get on it, check it out is worth seeing. And, you know, thanks again, to Owen for hopping on the show. And giving us his perspective, not only on Infinity Train, but the creative process. It was a it was a really eye opening conversation, especially kind of getting some insights around just the cartoon business. That's something that I don't have a whole lot of insider idea of how that stuff is made. So I appreciate the the honesty in that regard.
Ben 1:16:55
Yeah, as always, like thank you to folks for taking the time to talk to us. You can find us at origin story underscore, Phil, where can people find you? They can
Phil 1:17:06
find me on Twitter at three D Cisco. And where can they find you Ben?
Ben 1:17:11
At said underscore radio underscore lad and you can find our website at origin story dot show is that right?
Phil 1:17:18
origin story that show maybe thanks to Ryan Hopper for providing the awesome intro and outro music that you hear every episode. And thanks to melody Hirsch for giving us the great cover art.
Ben 1:17:31
If you have questions, concerns, ideas about who we should talk to next or some questions that you want to ask. Or even maybe if you want to tell us about your favorite taco toppings, you can hit us up over Twitter or you can email us at V origin story pod@gmail.com.
Phil 1:17:51
That's it for now. But we will be seeing you all here next week on the next episode of largest story
