Eric Obenauf and Eliza Wood-Obenauf (Two Dollar Radio) on Defining the Voice of an Indie Press
Episode Description
After years of working in the service industry, Eric Obenauf had an idea for an indie press that opened up space to publish bold, edgy, new voices he admired in the literature he loved. With the help of his wife Eliza the couple created Two Dollar Radio.
Two Dollar Radio is an indie press founded in 2005 with the mission to reaffirm the cultural and artistic spirit of the publishing industry.
With an aim to publish bold works of literary merit, each book, individually and collectively, provides a sonic progression that we believe to be too loud to ignore.
We talked to Eric and Eliza about the journey they took to making their indie press dreams a reality. And in the wake of the pandemic, how publishing books as a small press has become much more challenging, yet even more rewarding. This conversation is about the reality of living your dream, what they look for in publishing, and so much more.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can visit Two Dollar Radio’s website here.
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Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
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Phil 0:17
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell and I am with my co host, Ben, Thor. And Ben today we talked to some people that we really love the folks at $2 radio, Eric open off and Eliza Obon off the founders of $2 radio, which is a book publishing company, of which we've interviewed, I think two authors on the podcast at this point, Gina Nutt of night rooms and more recently, John Elizabeth Scentsy, with their book by volcano, it was really cool to finally meet these people behind some of the books that we love. And it was a really fun conversation.
Ben 1:08
Yeah, Phil, you know, we have been reading a lot of $2 books for a while now, maybe you should kind of tee us up just in terms of like, how you stumbled across the press, because I ended up reading a bunch of their books, because you were like, Yo, $2 radio cool for us.
Phil 1:23
Yeah, I mean, I definitely discovered them when I was in Ohio for my masters because they're based in Columbus, Ohio. And I assume the first book, I read it there as was. What is it?
Ben 1:38
They don't? They don't kill us. They can't kill us until they kill us. Yeah, they can't, they can't click Yes.
Phil 1:43
By Hanif abdurraqib. It's like a music, music kind of personal essay collection. So each essay is based around a particular like band or musician and kind of a neath is inter weaving his own personal connection, as well as a political socio cultural kind of insights into how he relates to these different musicians. Really, really popular book now. I mean, I think even during our conversation, they say it's sold, like over 75,000 copies or something like that. Which is a lot for like, these indie, these smaller indie presses. And, you know, their books are fairly cheap, and like, just really experimental, challenging and interesting. So that's kind of how I discovered them. And I'm sure yeah, I've kind of was just knocking on everybody's door, including yours then of like, hey, check out these books. They're really cool.
Ben 2:44
Yeah, and, you know, I think the other thing that kind of stands out, you're, you're kind of mentioning their, you know, their bit as they kind of self describe it is, you know, looking for stuff that's a little bit edgier, a little bit darker, a little bit more experimental. But you know, especially when you have, you've spent time in an English program, or maybe you just read a lot, I'm not going to offer too many my bad literary takes. But I often feel like if you read enough contemporary fiction, it all starts to blend together, you're like, I am reading the same stuff with a similar prose style, it becomes hard to miss that the kind of house style that is out there kind of permeates a lot of stuff. And so it can be hard to find stuff that's really truly weird, strange off the beaten path. And so a press like this becomes really interesting, I think, where you're like, Oh, this is this is weird. This is something that I haven't read anywhere else. And I'm probably not going to. And so I think during this conversation, we also get into the logistics of that, because they think you can ask a question about like, well, like, how do you market something that is weirder and stranger? And is I think more challenging in some ways? And what does that mean as a publisher to be to be able to pursue stuff like that, as opposed to you know, some of the big big four big five publishers who, at the end of the day are like, looking for stuff that is going to I think read pretty easy and be marketable?
Phil 4:13
Yeah. 100% I mean, if anything, I think to Ella radios books, was the first time where, you know, again, as people who have been on these programs, and we're writing work with the intention of maybe having a book or some some kind of bigger project someday, you know, when you think of the big publishers like Random House and, and all that, it can feel very like, oh, unattainable. And not to say that like getting a book publisher to go to a radio is necessarily any easier, but if anything, it just kind of made me feel like some of the more weird things I was writing actually could find a place to be published. And I mean, also like, I liked that they have a lot of books that are like really short. I mean, they have plenty of books that are longer but one thing I really liked is some of my favorite books by them are like these really short pieces. And I think when you're in, in grad programs, sometimes it can feel like oh, you can't really have things that are like kind of more on the shorter end when you're thinking about a longer project. So talking to them about that. And just kind of like their ethos, in terms of finding work was really interesting. So, you know, in this conversation, we get into things around like, you know, how the press came to be from Eric and Eliza working service industry jobs to starting this, one of one of the bigger indie presses in the country, as well as like, why it's important for them to take unsolicited submissions still, which is something that we've already touched upon in the press when we talk to Gina not in our first season. So yeah, I think this conversation is really interesting, and gives you a look into how the publishing industry works. And yeah, they just had a lot of really fun stories to tell us about, you know, this whole concept we've been talking about of like making the dream a reality and kinds of the sacrifices you need to make in order to get there. So yeah, really cool conversation. And we'll just jump right into it.
Ben 6:32
Eric Obon off and Eliza would open off describe themselves as an idealistic young married couple with a love of books, who now live in Columbus, Ohio, with their two children and their brick and mortar indie bookstore, the two founded $2 radio as a family run outfit in 2005, with the mission to reaffirm the cultural and artistic spirit of the publishing industry, both of you, thank you so much for coming and talking to us today. I you know, I think one of the big questions that I want to get to and tee you up with is, you know, Phil, and I have been reading your books on and off for years now. And I think it's fair to say that we really enjoy what $2 is doing. One of the things kind of broadly that feels like it's standing out and you can correct me is that, you know, I feel like it, it's placing itself in a place that's maybe different from a lot of contemporary lit, where it's allowing for things that feel a little bit more daring feel like they're not afraid to be more kind of complicated in some ways. And so I'm wondering if you can, you can just talk about what is the ethos of what makes a book that $2 radio is going to pursue or is interested in? And how is it different from, you know, what some of the kind of bigger books in the publishing industry, like
Eric Obenauf 7:49
are? Well, I think, especially early on, someone told us, it was a writer that republished Joshua Moore, and I think he was originally quoting someone else too. But he said, you know, no one recommends like, an okay book to their friends, like you don't finish reading a book, and you're like, hey, that was pretty average, like, I'm going to tell all my friends about it. They only recommend like really great books. And so that is something that we've always kept with us internalize, and try to approach each of our books in that way, where it's like, it's okay, if it's polarizing. It's okay. If you hate this, you should feel something after reading this book. And so that is something that's very, I think, vital to our mission, because it doesn't benefit an independent publisher to just be publishing stuff that could come out from any of the big presses. So we're looking for work that's like different distinctive, if they're putting a familiar spin on a story that we've already read, they have to do it in sort of like a really creative, brilliant way that stands out from the rest of the field.
Phil 9:00
Yeah, I mean, some books that stuck out to me are like, some of us are very hungry now by Andre Perry, or, very recently, my volcano by John Elizabeth Lindsey, you know, these books utilize highly experimental formal choices that I could imagine like, when you get these submissions, they can kind of feel like, well, how do I navigate responding to this and working with this text? I'm curious, like what it's like for you all. In that process, like you've accepted the manuscript or you're thinking about accepting the manuscript, how do you go about, like that editing process or the process that's leading up to publication and getting the book into the form that it needs to be?
Eliza Obenauf 9:49
Well, Eric is the acquisitions editor to use, like industry talk, so he exclusively reads the books we publish. And intentionally, I function as kind of like editor to. So if if a book needs a lot of work, which occasionally will be the case where we do a lot of restructuring, Eric will have eyes on it first do his work. And then I won't take any peek at it at all, so that I can read it with fresh eyes and try to catch anything, that if you're restructuring things, you know, a character that got cut might still be in there somewhere. So catching things like that. And then I also do the copy editing. So he is Eric is the person who our brand is based off of its Eric's taste in literature. And that's why we've been successful is because I think there's like a very pinpointed, like, taste that is coming through and that you're seeing so books as different as my volcano and Andre Andre Perry's book. They are pretty different books. But then when you look at our whole catalog as a whole, you can see that there's kind of these these connecting threads that that he mentioned, like extremely voice driven, confident, edgy, usually tending towards the dark. So yeah, it's our brand is Eric's taste in books. It's like, really simple.
Ben 11:26
You know, I'm wondering if, you know, as you've kind of defined what the what the voice or what the kinds of books that you look for, are going to be has it gotten to a place where people will say, Oh, $2 is the publication that we want to go to?
Eric Obenauf 11:41
Well, I think in general, like for, I guess, in terms of like wooing authors, it's a lot easier than it was years ago. I mean, when we were first starting out, we didn't have a distributor, and we were like, in our early to mid 20s, and didn't really know what you're doing. We just had, like, you know, the spark of this idea, and extreme passion for books. But I guess like one of the stories I tell about that time, when we were first starting out, was getting really well. It's a Rudolph Wurlitzer to agree to publish with us. He hadn't published a novel in 20 years. And so the publishing industry has a really short attention span, if you haven't published anything like three to five years, you know, you're dead to them in terms of like having any kind of like sales history or clout. And so really had his he had, like, super powerful agent who was shopping around this, this novel manuscript called the droppage of yonder. And, and so I read it and absolutely adored it, and really was responsive. And we didn't have a distributor and things like that. It was ridiculous. And so then, Rudy was like, we spoke on the phone a couple of times, and then he's like, I'm gonna be in New York, staying at a friend's house, if you want to meet up, and we can talk about this. And so I met him, it was we're living in New York at the time, living in Brooklyn, met up with Rudy, he didn't tell me who his friend was, but it was full of a class. And so I showed up to his house. And I was like, like, 2425, like, everything was in my backpack, like, I didn't dress up or anything like that. And he's like, yeah, come on in and introduce me to Philip Glass. And then we went down, you know, it's the lower floor. And we were talking about the drop edge of yonder and what we wanted to do with $2, radio and all that stuff, and the whole time, in the room above us, Philip Glass is playing the piano. And it was just like, the most insane experience. So really, you know, agreed to publish with us. And that was a really big, sort of like milestone. And then we ended up getting more substantial distribution as a result of that. And then we released that book, and it did really well. But then all the time, he was wonky, too, because that was like spring of 2008. And then that that fall, the great recession hit. Everyone was talking about e readers the death of print all this crap. So we never got to experience sort of like easy sailing, golden days and publishing. It's always been uphill.
Ben 14:33
Can you kind of talk about like, those are the early days, what was the what was the initial dream and maybe How did that start? I was reading an interview that you too did with lit hub, about you kind of moved to Columbus started this publish company, essentially, I think broke. What did this look like and what was the kind of vision that you had in those those early days?
Eliza Obenauf 14:57
We were actually in San Diego broke But like all of its broken several, because all of our money was going to living a few blocks away from the beach, you know, 23 ish. And that's that was our priority at that point in time. So we were doing service industry jobs, just trying to kind of figure out what was going to happen at because we had finished college. And yeah, so that's, that's where the company started was during we lived in San Diego for a total of two years and started the company there. And it was Eric's idea.
Eric Obenauf 15:43
The I mean, we,
Eliza Obenauf 15:45
it was my idea to have a baby. And it was his idea to start a company. So we started the company.
Eric Obenauf 15:54
I mean, we were, we were, we were reading a time, and we're, you know, that was sort of like a shared passion of ours was like reading and passing out books with one another. So it was pretty, like formative in terms of like, common ground for our relationship early on was set to be sharing these books that we that we really loved. And so I was picking up a lot of books published by these small presses, like a car shake and soft skull, in small view, and so at the time, I would go to a bookstore, and I wouldn't look for like author names, or whatever the latest book was, I would just be looking for the little logo from like a small press that I recognize, and then I just buy whatever that was. And so, you know, discovering that whole, like, niche universe of the small presses, you know, it's like the way that you would trust in the record label, like Matador verge, or Jack Jaguar, or whatever. It's like, you know, their tastes, and you know, you know, that you can trust their inclinations. And so that was kind of like how we wanted to approach $2, radios, a press, but also sort of like how we imagined conceiving it, or how it would exist. But also, if you look at the publishing industry as a whole over the last, like, since World War Two, the because there's been so much corporate consolidation from World War Two, until the 90s. You know, right now, there's been even more consolidation in the last couple of years, where we're really looking at there's, there's four major corporations that make up like 80 plus percent of book sales in the US. And so the flip side of that is, it's created an environment over the last quarter century for just small publishers to pop up out of nowhere and get like really, really incredible work, and publish it, and craft this identity out of nowhere.
Eliza Obenauf 18:00
Which is how we got really Merlot SIRs novel, The draft edge of yonder in the first place. And there was a another book that we read by Andre Shiffrin called the business of business of books, which was really inspiring to Eric. And then he passed it on to me, and I read it. And I was also inspired, because it's just kind of like the underdogs, you know, like, rising up to the challenge and that. So there was just some that those were like, some of the magic ingredients that led to the idea of like, we're gonna start our own family press was a shared interest, a shared taste in books, a vision for what we wanted to publish. And then just we're really kind of independently minded.
Phil 18:54
So So, Eric, take us back to the to the pitch of this $2 radio, did you like bust into the room with a bunch of manuscripts and you're like, Eliza, we need to start a publishing company. You just got off work.
Eliza Obenauf 19:07
I know. Eric was bartending at a holiday. Yeah. Yeah. On the beach in San Diego.
Eric Obenauf 19:16
I, I think that there's something magical about that period in your life where you can do things without a lot of force. Or like, industry know how and if you're naive enough and idealistic enough, then you can just kind of like, shoulder through all the various obstacles.
Eliza Obenauf 19:36
Just kind of assume things will work out at that age. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is definitely we're like we'll just do that.
Eric Obenauf 19:45
We definitely didn't have like a business plan.
Eliza Obenauf 19:47
We did not have I still don't have a business.
Eric Obenauf 19:51
Have any money either. And it was like, I got in touch with John Martin, you started black Sparrow Press. And so when I got in touch them, I was like, this is really cool this story thing, blah, blah, blah. Do you have any insight or advice? And he's like, Well, you know, like, I also had like $30,000, which I think in today's at that time, like 2007, in 2007 would amount to something like $300,000. Yeah, it was just like, Oh, shit. We don't have that. So
Eliza Obenauf 20:30
are you telling me that?
Eric Obenauf 20:32
I've always been the optimist? Yeah, the two of us. So. Yeah. Didn't want to concede that.
Eliza Obenauf 20:43
Yeah, so yeah, we just kind of the all the ingredients were there. And then starting indie press was the result of just everything falling into place.
Ben 20:56
Can you maybe talk about that process? I think, you know, we've been talking to a lot of this year so far, you know, we've talked to musicians who go on tour and then start to wonder about kind of what what is stability mean? How do I kind of chase this dream that I have of this kind of making me as a musician or as an artist, but also I have to, like balance my my life, and like figuring out how to get through that. And I'm wondering what that process or what that balance was, like, for you over the course of you know, because my hunch is that you didn't kind of put out one book and you're like, Alright, done with a day job. Like we've done it. My, my sense is that that was a process. And maybe you can talk about what that process looked like.
Eliza Obenauf 21:36
It was a process. And like I mentioned, we started a family at the same time. So um, so basically, I think it now we're going this is our 17th year of having the press. And I think it maybe a year 10 Or so I think Eric was able to finally quit his night job. But so our process with running the press was Eric worked a night job, usually as a bartender, managing a bar, and I had a day job at a corporate textbook publisher. So we would because we daycare, I don't know, do you guys have kids daycare is so expensive.
Ben 22:18
I don't but I hear that is very expensive. Yeah.
Eliza Obenauf 22:21
So we couldn't, we couldn't afford daycare. So he would watch the kids during the day and simultaneously work on the press. And then I would get home from work. Sometimes we would like just say hello to each other as we like past each other to go like, I was getting home from work, and he would go to work. And, and then I would you know, like, do my copy editing tasks and whatever else needed to get done with the kids. So basically, it's been, it could have been really easy at any point in the last 17 years to say like this is too much like, we need to stop. But we're just both so stubborn and willing to take on a lot of responsibility, like each of us were both built that way. So it was just never an option to stop. And then finally, you know, once you build up enough of a backlist, and keep putting out work that resonates with people, then think the snowball just keeps getting bigger. So now we both work full time for the press. And you know, we like chose to live in an in a place in a neighborhood that was extremely affordable. So it's like every decision we've made in our lives has been based around letting the press like grow and thrive, including moving to Ohio, because the cost of living is cheaper than San Diego or New York City. One might imagine.
Eric Obenauf 23:56
I definitely think like a lot of what you're talking about, can really feel daunting throughout that whole process. And has felt really daunting over the course of the last 70 years where, you know, we would when we were starting out especially we had these different, like milestones where it was like, man, we just gotta get covered by the book publishing trade publications, and then we'll be set and then we got covered by those places. And they were like, Okay, once we get a major distributor, then we'll be set, you know, we'll be able to do this full time. And I would, you know, ask our friends who worked in the industry to like, how long did it take you before? A lot of them said like 10 years, so that was kind of like in the back of my mind. But, you know, another one of those milestones was like, man, we just got to get our books covered by major media and the New York Times. And you know, like I said, you know, so specifically, I remember like, reaching a point where we were getting like Like most of our books at during a certain period of like window of time, we're getting covered by the New York Times. And, you know, we're still like working through the slog of like, working till three in the morning. And then like getting up with the kids in the morning and working on the press and stuff like that, and juggling our kids and work. And so it's just been, it's really humbling to that whole process of, you know, having to, you know, sweep the floor at night in a bar, after, you know, reaching this really extreme high of having a book is like a full page review in the New York Times. It Yeah, it's definitely like kept us very modest.
Eliza Obenauf 25:45
I think also starting out during the Great Recession, where it's just, we've always been like, even if there's money in our pockets, like we, we know, we need to save it for a rainy day, you know, like, there's no wasted money, like, we keep a really tight eye on our budgets, because we've always had to. So yeah, there's definitely you got to make a lot of sacrifices to build something from scratch. And if anyone had given me a crystal ball and said, like, this is how hard it's gonna be, we wouldn't have done it, but like, it was like, it's like boiling a frog, you know, it was just like, you now we need to do this. Okay, now we need to do this. So it's just like, one foot in front of the other. And now, like, I'm so thankful that we did it. Because it's really amazing what's been created and rewarding. And
Eric Obenauf 26:40
it was, yeah, it was like, four years ago, like four and a half years ago, when but when we reached a point where you're both able to work on it full time.
Eliza Obenauf 26:52
And then for some reason, we opened a Bookstore Cafe. Well, that was actually wonderful. It's amazing. It's just, we're, we seem to bite off a lot at a time. So now, we're that that's the store is turning five this year. Which is pretty amazing. Because most of the time of it was in a pandemic. Yeah. But yeah, our kids work for us. Now. They're our daughters on the payroll. It's pretty cool. So it's a family, a family. I mean, it's a family press, obviously. But it really is like the four of us have been involved in it. The kids because they were forced into it. But they're starting to think it. They're starting to realize it's cool. Yeah. So that's really nice. Actually,
Eric Obenauf 27:52
a really funny story, you know, so we publish Hanif Abdurraquib essay collection, they can't kill us until they kill us. Yeah. So she's obviously huge. Yeah. And so at our daughter's high school, or daughter's 15, you know, they had had they had this, they're doing a project on Hanif, and like reading some of his books and stuff like that. And so they had the book, and our daughter took a picture of the thing, and also saw our son who's in sixth grade, they had to do this Google Doodle for Black History Month. And there was a one of his classmates was doing honey for their Google Doodle. And our son Maceio is like, I know, Hanif. And his classmate didn't believe him. And he's like, Yeah, my parents are probably the reason at our house. This past weekend for you.
Eliza Obenauf 28:51
I think, some cloud
Phil 28:54
major clouds, that's awesome. No, I love I love hearing that. That kind of story. I think Ben and I have have been contemplating that very idea of like the dream versus reality, even with producing this podcast, especially this the second season, I think, for whatever reason, recording the first season, maybe because it was during like an earlier portion of the pandemic, it felt a bit more seamless to do. Or maybe we had more time to do it. And you know, now, you know, we're both working full time jobs. And we're like, we're interviewing people while at work or whatever, and like trying to make things work. And like, Eric, to your point of, like getting the New York Times reviews and things like that, like finding those benchmarks. I think Ben and I have really had been been thinking about that and how we relate to the work that we're creating, like, for instance, I mean, even like getting emails from y'all to interview authors for the podcasts, like, like Ben said, we've been reading $2 books for years, and I wouldn't have imagined that we'd be like talking to you right now. You know, for, for instance, or like talking to other authors, like Gina nut, for instance, that was an amazing conversation. And I think it's really important just to, to show people like these things take time. And it's not easy by any means, right? Yeah, and a lot of commitment,
Eliza Obenauf 30:17
like, you could just be happily doing the work you have to do because you're at your job, you know, but on top of that, you're taking on this extra, what is what is work, even if it's fun work for you, but that's, that's how things get created. And then you just keep doing it for long enough. And then you have this beautiful thing that you've created. So yeah, very similar.
Ben 30:42
You know, I'm kind of current so you brought up honey, and I'm wondering how important that book was obviously big enough that like, and I think it was gonna say, I think that was the first one that I read, how important are, you know, in, you know, to the company into, you know, finding other books and being able to publish other books are kind of books that make it big? And how I guess like, yeah, when you're when you're deciding, like, where to go or what to choose or what to take the risk on? How important are those kind of big books that blow up and become a part of our kind of broader conversation?
Eric Obenauf 31:16
Well, that book was obviously like instrumental and foundational for us just in what it's allowed us to do and other books that we've been afforded the opportunity to publish as a result of that. I think that it gave us a lot of street cred to there were some other books that were, you know, sort of really big hits for us before they can't kill us until they kill us. Like Scott McClanahan is crap. Alicia, you know, which is taught in universities and just continues to sell tremendously well, and is a book that really resonates with with people and with writers too. And another one, you know, and you know, just a year or two ago, ocean Wong did a list for lit hub about books that he needed to read. In order to write on Earth. We're briefly gorgeous. And one of the only contemporary works that he placed on the list was crab Alicia, which is about growing up in rural West Virginia. And then another one another sort of like milestone for us was this book the orange eats creeps, By grace Karolina vich that received a recognition from the National Book Foundation. And it's about slowly teenage hobo vampire junkies. Race was compared a lot to William Burroughs and Kathy Acker, and it's just this really nervy acerbic text. And the fact that it's gone on to sell like 10 to 15,000 copies is pretty incredible, and exceeded our expectations for sure. But it's also like it's under option with Mary heron, who directed and adapted American Psycho. And she's planning on it being her next project that she comes out with. So hopefully it's a movie really soon, too. But that's another one in this conversation for lit hub that Emily St. John Mandel and Maura Vandenberg had with one another, they both pointed it that that book is like one of the books that they keep coming back to, and writers whose work that they're excited to read new work from yours come on over so many there, they can't kill us. And so they can kill us was, I mean, like, we've got like, 70,000 copies in print, I think at this point. And, you know, it's shown up in like, music videos, and ESPN is adapting one of the essays into like a short film. And it's a question on the AECT. He's so it's just it. I mean, it's wild. It's crazy. It's insane.
Eliza Obenauf 34:11
But that's the crazy thing about publishing is like, no, like, we don't have a crystal ball and neither does anybody else in the industry. So there are some things that you that you can kind of know, like, if the author is really outgoing, like, for example, with Hanif, like he relentlessly toured the country because he's a poet. So, you know, his, his stage presence is just magical. And so he worked so hard to like, get himself to where he is where he his travel schedule was insane. He was constantly traveling and doing events. So it's just you and then there's some books that we published that we're just kind of like, Can like kind of shocked that they don't don't do what Oh, like, do well in terms of just sales numbers, you know, like how many copies moved. So it's just, you just never know what's going to really take hold like the bulk of the RNG. It's creeps. If you got a good reads and look at the reviews, it's like all one star, and all five stars. It's like people hate it with a passion, or love it with a passion. So it's when we published that book, we didn't know it was going to be one of our top sellers for like, you know, alright, history.
Ben 35:32
Yeah, I think that's interesting, because I think I'm, I'm wondering if, oh, is there a tension between? Oh, is this something where you're like, this is more marketable, this is more consumable? This is easier. You know, I was reading a couple months back the vine that ate the South, a book that I really loved, but I was like, I cannot imagine this being published anywhere else. And so I'm, like, you know, is there ever that tension there? Or are you just like, these are the books that we want to take chances on. And so like, just like your,
Eliza Obenauf 36:05
your podcast that you're creating, it's kind of like, if you the Field of Dreams, like if you build it, they will come so you built your thing, and you're gonna attract people that are into the thing you're doing. And we've built this thing that is very, like, people can see what we're doing, and are attracted to it. So I think in part we've, we have somewhat of a loyal reading, like reading bass, like people who have read a few of our books, and have liked them, like, continue to come back, because they're curious, you know, what else we're gonna do. So we try to take that really seriously, and try to have like, a no wasted bullets, you know, like, make sure everything we put out is like this top level, like, our expectation of excellence,
Eric Obenauf 36:55
which is good for us in terms of our relationship in terms of just like, being a married couple, and not having any kind of like, bullshit filter is, is like livid with me, like, I will not hear the end of it. Because
Eliza Obenauf 37:11
there's just no room for error. So my point is, if we publish a book that I'm like, yelling at moszkowicz is one of my favorite authors on this planet. And we've, we have had the good fortune of publishing two of her three novels. And I think we actually want it to publish the first one, but, but it got placed to someone else. But then we we got virtuoso, and it came out January before the pandemic, so like, not great timing. And then we published her second or third novel last year. And she's brilliant, I really hope that she finds her place at the top of like, literary giants quickly, because I believe that she is, but it's, it's super edgy and confident. And, in some ways, experimental, especially, especially the last one. So in order for us to run a business, we have to sell copies, right. And so it's like, it's really, we're in a good position, because we have a loyal reading base. So we know that we can get them like interested in in a book like, that is outside of kind of like the normal, safe books to read, I guess. I don't know, if I'm experts,
Eric Obenauf 38:39
I think that, you know, we go into it, like I've said it a couple of occasions that I think that, you know, like 2030 years from now. ulana moszkowicz is like gonna win the Nobel Prize for Literature. Like she's just one of those just incendiary talent. It's just absolutely brilliant. Mind blowing work. But is someone like that, you? That is? I don't know. I mean, it's, it's surprising to us a lot of times, we go into every book, like thinking like, this is brilliant 100% behind this, this deserves to win the National Book Award. And then you know, like, so it's shocking when like, we don't have six books when the National Book Award. But you know, it's just one of those things. You know, it's like the Fionna dream thing like Lazarus saying, you just throw enough stuff out there that that throws you stay true to your suit you're doing Yeah, and we've never published a book because we thought like, specifically because we thought, Oh, this is gonna sell well. It's it always has to be like a $2 radio book.
Eliza Obenauf 39:44
Yeah, it's actually the opposite. Like we just kind of a book we're worried about turning a profit on because we have such a long track record. Now we know how much it costs to, you know, like, do a print run. I mean, there are certain fixed costs, you know, like a barcode It cost $25. Like, every book has that built in. So a book that we is we're we know financially, it's probably not going to be our, like best seller for the year, we just make changes for how we publish it. So that to make it to reduce the costs as much as possible so that we can publish it and not hurt ourselves like, financially, you know? So,
Eric Obenauf 40:26
and it is, I mean, the origin scripts was a good, like, early example for us in terms of like taking something on that we're like, oh, man, are we ever gonna break even on this, and then it's hugely successful, which I think was a valuable lesson for us to learn. But I think in terms of we are there, there is an added layer of stress now in terms of like having employees, and it's like, we need to make enough money to keep the lights on to keep our employees paid. So that we can afford the two and things like that. Yeah.
Eliza Obenauf 41:01
All about, it's definitely different when you give up your day job, because all of the eggs are in this basket. Yeah. So we're, yeah. And like, Eric was saying, there's no bullshit filter, like, we're really hard on each other. But in a productive way, not in like, a bad way. You know, it's like, decisions have to be made. Sometimes they're hard decisions. There's time constraints on everything. So yeah, we really never stopped working, because we're, we live in the same house. Sometimes discussions, you know, from earlier in the day, come back to life after dinner?
Phil 41:52
Well, I think I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, your point lies about like, you've built up this audience that you can take risks on certain novels or collections, and know that you can kind of get people bought into it, I think it's so true. Like, I can say for sure, to dollar radio, is like the one like character point of like, looking at the logo, instead of the, the author's name, like, when you when you whenever you guys have those sales, that's like five bucks or whatever, for how much I always, I always biome, like, I probably have like 20 to 20 plus $2 radio books. And it's because it's because of what you're saying Eliza, like, I just know that the work is going to be challenging and experimental and interesting at a formal level. And that's what I'm interested in. So I'm okay with, like, not knowing who the author is, and just knowing that the book is going to be something I like, because you all like it. And yeah, yeah, and I something that is really interesting to me that Gina not actually brought up and you you all have talked about a bit is that, um, if I'm remembering correctly, night rooms was an unsolicited submission. And was this wild? To me thinking about just like how amazing that manuscript is, I'm curious, like, why it's important for you all to keep that avenue open, because I think, at least from what I've seen, it's not like that common for publishers to be like, Oh, we're just gonna allow the floodgates to be open. And whatever comes in comes in.
Eric Obenauf 43:27
I mean, it's, it's super important to us to continue to accept unsolicited submissions. And there really aren't that many publishers, I guess our size who do that most of them might have, like a very specific reading window when they do open it up to unsolicited submissions. But I think that when you think about agents, as you know, in terms of what they want to take on, they're interested in what they can sell at. And they're going to make more money if they sell it to a big publisher. So that is the agent submissions that we tend to get team seem to follow one of two tracks, either they're super invested in the author's career and totally believe in that author, and think that we would it be a good starting point for the author over and then, you know, eventually, like sell to a larger press for more money. Or the second track is they've already submitted to all these big publishers, they've all said no. And so that doesn't necessarily mean it's perfect for us. And some of the best work that we've ended up taking taking on has been unsolicited submissions and some of our best selling books too. In terms of like the orange ease creeps, I mean, I would say during the course of a year, like 50% roughly give or take is comes from like unsolicited submission. Wow. Book found audio is one of like a dark horse on our list. Yeah. I think we've gone through like three or four printings and probably like six or 7000 copies. And that was an unsolicited submission. The deeper the water, the uglier fish by Kathy applicate. Yeah, that's another like dark horse for us. Like, I think we just got back the fourth printing today. She submitted to us like unsolicited, even though she's got one of the most high. So the agent, like, shopped it around or whatever. And I don't think she thought he was whatever. She submitted directly to us to us available, and that was how we encountered it. And then another book that's doing tremendously well for us right now that is, unfortunately, really timely is I will die in a foreign land. Yeah. Barney Picard. And, you know, that was one that came to us, unsolicited to you. And I think that we have that reputation is being willing to work with authors. And so sometimes in the in terms of the unsolicited submissions, there is a bit more elbow grease that goes into it. But it's worth it for us.
Ben 46:05
Maybe one of the final questions just because you you mentioned it, and I wanted to get you to talk about it briefly is like, you know, you're also talking about being in the midst of a series of crises, right, like the 2008 financial crisis being the start of the press, we've got the COVID pandemic, we've got, you know, and you were also talking about, like, how there's always been this conversation around, oh, the death of the death of print. And actually, I think I was I was just reading an article a couple years ago, that was like, oh, it's not going to be ebooks, it's going to be audiobooks now. And so I'm wondering, like, where are you? Like, you know, the, the press has obviously grown and survived. And, you know, I think you're showing that people really do love this kind of personal touch, but like, how do you position yourself? And how do you see yourselves in this in this world? That is kind of moving from crisis to crisis in a lot of ways?
Eric Obenauf 46:55
Well, I think 2018 was supposed to be the year that ebook sales and print sales were supposed to be 5050. I mean, that's what they were seeing in 2820 10 2008 2010. Was that, you know, take about 10 years, obviously, I didn't happen. I mean, for us, I think it's still probably like 95% or so like, physical books versus ebooks that are sold. And it's just, I mean, I think, trying to think of the name, a bookseller Romans years ago, Patrick, Pat, Patrick Brown, you know, he had this point where it's just like, a book has been around for centuries. And it's a perfect technology, it's like, it really is like, you can hold in your hands and you flip the page. And I think you can prove that, yeah, it doesn't need to be charged. It doesn't waste like unique vital resources from the earth. And the, you know, you can plant more trees and things like that and print on recycled paper, but it really is just sort of like the perfect technology. Whereas if you think about music delivery devices or audiobooks, something like that, those are things that are just constantly being tweaked and improved. And it's like recent technology. So, you know, it's not necessarily like apples to apples like ebooks to, or I guess, like books to Spotify. Yes. Right? to something like that.
Eliza Obenauf 48:27
So we've we've never really worried about, we've never seen ebooks as like, an issue because what we've built the company is based on what we like. Yeah, so we like to read physical books. We don't have we don't read on devices. I do really like audiobooks myself. But so and we and we do like Gina nuts, Gina and I made the audiobook together. Yeah, she recorded we sent her on like, she recorded it in her closet. And then I mastered it on freeware. So um, you know, it's like, we we definitely embrace the different channels like audio ebook. But our bread and butter is the physical object that we like, both revered so
Eric Obenauf 49:20
but I think in terms of navigating crises, I guess really it's just focusing on what we can control which is just making the book the best possible thing that it can be the work and working with the the writer to edit it and trying to find stories that are interesting and appealing to to readers too. And not necessarily focusing on trends, I guess.
Eliza Obenauf 49:48
But sadly, the biggest problem that really the biggest stressor for us right now is the like rapidly, just like insanely rapid increase in prices because of the supply chain. issue issues. So the cost of paper, there's glue shortage, there's paper shortage, there's all of the big presses that usually print overseas in China. Because the cost of in the cargo issues during COVID, they stopped printing over there and brought their printings to North America where we print. So they flooded all the printers. So like, not only is the cost of the product going up, but the wait lines are longer. So our biggest issue right now is just like, the sticker price on books has to go up, there's no option. So that's kind of like the biggest thing going forward, that's the thing that is going to affect us the most not like different formats, but just the cost of the product itself.
Eric Obenauf 50:51
There's something to be said to like for us as consumers, you know, being willing to accept something at a higher value, because of the work that goes in acknowledging the work that goes into it. And I'm okay with that in terms of like what I purchase, whether that be like, food at a restaurant, or Yeah, piece of art or something like that. And I think if you look at the prices on some things, they haven't been allowed to go up much of the last 15 or 17 years since we started, you know, like books haven't really increased in cost while everything else has, because of Amazon, things like that. So it's, you know, a give and take, it would be nice to see like books achieve sort of like their due value in our culture,
Eliza Obenauf 51:40
which they do in other countries. So it's just kind of like, that's, that's the next phase, I think, for not just us, but publishing
Phil 51:47
as a whole. Something. On a completely unrelated note, something I had to ask was, I saw a funny video that you all recorded with your kids, I think it was like your kids interviewing Eric or something like that. And it got me thinking just like, I feel as like, you know, you read interviews with musicians, like famous musicians, or authors or whatever. And when it comes to the kids, the kids are like, Oh, I don't listen to the music, or like, I don't care about what my parents do. Obviously, your kids, you know, work for you all, at $2. But I'm curious, like, what is their relationship to the business and books and reading? Are they avid readers? Or do you find that? Well, how do they relate to it,
Eliza Obenauf 52:30
they are avid readers, they both excel at reading and, you know, they get tested like 10 million times a year at schools. So they're very, they're very high levels of reading. And, and they really love reading, which is the whole point of all of it. We've been trying to get our kids, especially our older one, because of the maturity level to read some of our books, since you already have books, which I can't tell if there's a little bit of resistance to that, or it's just that our books are not meant for 15 year olds, you know, but they definitely, like we touched on they're definitely respecting what we do and realize that it's something for them to be proud of.
Eric Obenauf 53:21
There are definitely times to where we'll get in the weeds talking about it, like while we're sitting outside or something, and our son will just be like I'm going inside now.
Eliza Obenauf 53:31
I mean, he's on the 11th. But sometimes, like we were arguing about the best way to track something, and I wanted to use a calendar as the tool. And Eric wanted to use a spreadsheet as the tool and we were going back and forth. I was thinking my reasons. And he was saying his reasons. And our son was just like standing watching us. And he was like, why don't you just do it both ways. He like, you know, it's trying to solve our problem for us. So I think for them, it's just kind of like, it's always been there. You know, it's like, kind of like a third child.
Eric Obenauf 54:05
I can't imagine them you know, like, in some of the early memories of our son like coming out like he had trouble pronunciation would it be he called it to dally radio. And I mean, like that there and we had these like temporary tattoos and they would put them all over their body and stuff like that. So I guess Yeah, it really is just a physical presence in their lives, and maybe emotional presence here. In the recent past, I guess like seeing some of the stuff where it's like our books appearing on the news. They're starting to they might not acknowledge it quite as much with us to us, but there seems to be
Eliza Obenauf 54:50
Yeah, it'll be really interesting as they enter adulthood because they both kind of have careers picked out but our daughter works on the weekends at the bookstore. Are as a kind of like running food and taking orders and interacting with people who are in our space. And really, really, really loves that experience. And kind of, you know, looks forward to it. So like when given the chance to hang out with a friend, instead, our daughter will choose to go to the to work. So, I mean, I feel like that says something for 15. That's
Phil 55:27
a good sign.
Eliza Obenauf 55:31
And I think it's because there's a little bit of a status thing there, you know, like we are, people are coming to our space, because they like what we've built. So people are coming there seeking us out. And it's kind of, I think, fun for our children to be a part of that. But I don't know if they're going to work for us when they're older. We'll have to
Phil 55:53
Well, Ben, do you? Do you have any, any?
Ben 55:56
I don't, I was gonna say, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I really appreciate it.
Eliza Obenauf 56:03
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, we
Eric Obenauf 56:05
appreciate you, it's really great to talk to you guys too.
Phil 56:28
And that was our conversation with Eric and Eliza opened off about $2 radio, how it came to be, what they're doing now, why it's important to have kind of unsolicited submissions, and a industry that has kind of, you know, got gotten rid of that really cool conversation. And I don't know about you, Ben. But it kind of just, it kind of gave me a little bit of hope in terms of like, oh, maybe like the work I'm working on, I can place it somewhere, whether it's $2 radio or, you know, a place kind of like there's
Ben 57:05
Yeah, 100% I think like, talking to people who are like, Oh, actually, we go out of our way to find stuff that is going to stick with you and to kind of be weird enough or experimental enough or say something strongly enough that it's, it's going to impact you that as a reader, you're gonna you're gonna stick around with it. I really just love that ethos, too. I think Eric kind of talks a little bit about it, and Eliza touches touches on it too. But this idea that you like, can't predict what's going to blow up, like you can't really know, like, what are the books that are going to pop off, I think really stands out for me that, you know, as a publisher, they're kind of saying, Listen, there's no real way to know what books are going to make it big, and what books are going to, you know, kind of fizzle out. And so in some ways, like that's an incentive to make these bets on books that are, you know, strange or weird or different, that you can't find anywhere else. Because, you know, like a why not, but be also like, then you want stuff that people are going to, you know, want to talk about, because it is so different. And it is so challenging that people will be like, Oh, hey, I haven't seen this elsewhere. I just think it's a it's an interesting way of approaching, you know, how do you how do you make guesses about like, what's what's worth publishing?
Phil 58:26
Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, that there's a part in the conversation where Eric is talking about how, like they're their ethos, in some ways with public publishing is that it's almost like a music, like a record label, where like an indie record label where, you know, even if you don't necessarily know who the who the author is, the kind of intentionality behind it is that, you know, their readership trusts, Eric analyzes, tastes, and that it's going to be a good book, it's going to be experimental, it's going to be like something they haven't experienced before. And I think, I mean, I think they really do deliver on that. Because I can just speak personally, you know, throughout the year, they do the sales where they'll be like, get five of our books for like, 20 or so dollars. And, like, dead ass every time I'm like, Okay, well, I guess I'm getting five books. And it really is because, because I'm like, Okay, I've read a couple of their books. And I know that whatever the case may be, it's going to be a book that I'm not used to like in terms of the structure like I can think of like my volcano, like that book, like 100% have never experienced anything like it probably won't experience anything like it except by a press, like $2 radio. Or like another book of airs that we haven't had on the show is a Tarik shots, whiteout conditions. It's like a really short, brisk novel like probably under 200 pages long. hyperfocused and really inventive. have, you know, books like that are ones that you're not going to really see in these bigger publishers? And I wouldn't necessarily pick out if they were from those bigger publishers, I think kind of having somebody like $2 radio stamp of approval on there makes me okay with maybe taking a risk on a on a book that I normally would, you know, pass by in the bookstore.
Ben 1:00:22
Yeah, the other thing is, I think they dovetail so well with our emergent theme this season, which is about, you know, the dream and how much work goes into kind of trying to make stuff like this, get off the ground, and how long that takes. I mean, so on this round, you kind of hear Eliza talking about that they've been working on this press for 17 years. And I think it took them about a decade. For Eric to be able to quit his night job. I think he talks about working night shifts in order to be able to start working full time on this project, which is like such a massive commitment. Right. And I think he's just like another example of like, just how much work sometimes goes into the effort of like, getting some of the stuff off the ground.
Phil 1:01:14
Yeah, I mean, 100% I think all the people we've talked to this season have, have validated our own our own thoughts around that. But it's big, especially this this conversation conversation, it's like, one it's stag, it's a staggering thought to think they they've spent over a decade before they can get to a point where, you know, they could do that full time. But also to it's like, it's it's ended up being being worth it in the end. And without without, you know, looking at it with rose tinted glasses, I think that they are pretty honest about like, if we could go back, we probably wouldn't do this thing. I think it's what they said. So just like thinking about about that, and how, you know, this kind of choice they ended up making, while while difficult, has ended up kind of producing a life that feels fulfilling for them. I think is so cool. So yeah, this conversation was really was really great to have and one that it was just kind of validating in terms of like, Hey, here's this, essentially this brand, now that I that I've liked for all these years, from afar and getting to meet the people behind it, and it turns out, hey, they're just as cool as this thing that they're making. So yeah, I just really appreciated being able to, you know, shoot the shit with them for a little bit and kind of learn a little bit more about their lives and how they've made this publisher that I really like, you know, a thing.
Ben 1:02:46
Yeah. 100%. Phil, anything else?
Phil 1:02:52
No, I mean, I think as always, if you enjoyed the show, definitely follow it on like Spotify. Subscribe on Apple podcasts. And, you know, give those five star ratings, even if you don't end up leaving a written review, which you should the reviews help in terms of getting more people seeing the show on their app, and you know, all that jazz. I'm sure you hear this on every podcast, so I won't I won't belabor the point. But yeah, the reviews help and more importantly, I think Ben and I really like hearing from you all so if you ever want to drop us a line, whether it's just a question or an insight or a reaction to do an episode, definitely do that by sending us either like over Twitter at origin story underscore or at our our email which is the origin story pod@gmail.com You can also find all this information at our website which is origin story dot show.
Ben 1:03:57
Thanks as always to Ryan Hopper for our intro and our outro music melody Hirsch for all the design work that she's been doing for origin story. You can find me at sad underscore radio underscore lad Phil, where can they find you?
Phil 1:04:14
They can find me on Twitter at three D Cisco like the musician. Twitter and yeah in terms of two hour radio $2 radio.com as well as on all social stuff at $2 radio again I think that their their books are really great some some off the cuff recommendations would be Yeah, my volcano by John Elizabeth Cincy night rooms by Gina nut. And another one I really liked was some of us are very hungry now by Andre parry. Ben, I don't know if you have others you might want to recommend.
Ben 1:04:56
I really liked the vine that ate the self which is just a just a really, really well written book kind of Southern Gothic. worth checking out. If that sounds like your jam at all. I also checked just because we always do like, what's the latest release with all of our folks that obviously a much longer list because this is a publisher, but they do have a $2 radio guide to vegan cooking, which just released and as a reminder, I think they talked about it briefly, but they have a vegan restaurants as part of their pub, which is pretty cool.
Phil 1:05:37
Yeah, 100% I'd love like when I lived in Ohio, I never actually got to visit the store. So, you know, at some point in time, Ben and I are gonna have to do a live recording today on the radio they already offered. So one day
Ben 1:05:51
time for us to do a grub tour. Origin Story food addition.
Phil 1:05:56
Yeah, I'm ready. So yeah, thanks again for for listening to the episode and yeah, we'll be back here again, with the next episode of origins.
