Devin McKnight (Maneka) on Creating More Than Just "Sad Boy" Music
Episode Description
Devin McKnight is a musician and songwriter currently based in Brooklyn, NY. Previously hes played guitar in rock projects such as Speedy Ortiz, Grass is Green, and Philadelphia Collins. At the moment, his main focus is the rock band he fronts, Maneka(Monica), which fuses elements of jazz, improvisation, math rock and shoegaze. Under this project he’s released three records Is This You, Devin, and most recently Dark Matters.
We talk to Devin about creating his new record "Dark Matters," the challenges of navigating predominately white spaces in the indie rock music industry, generational trauma, Black experience, and making something more nuanced that sad boy music.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can visit Maneka’s website here.
You can follow Devin McKnight here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
-
Phil 0:00
Devin McKnight is a musician and songwriter currently based in Brooklyn, New York. Previously, he's played guitar and rock projects such as speedy Ortiz, grasses, green and Philadelphia Collins. But at the moment, his main focus is on his own rock band called Monica, which fuses elements of jazz improvisation, math, rock, and shoegaze. Under this project, he's released three records so far. Is this you a self titled album called Devon, and most recently, Dark Matters. And, Devin, we're super excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 0:37
Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me.
Phil 0:40
Yeah, how's it going? You know, obviously, Dark Matters came out, I think in March, was it? How's that been?
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 0:49
It's been pretty great. Yeah, I mean, I was like, pretty, pretty shocked that people were into it. So
Phil 0:59
that's, that seems pretty, like freeing. I feel like, in some ways, a kind of being able to, like work on work on your project, you know, invest yourself in that. And then, you know, put it out there. And like, whatever happens happens, I think, something that Ben and I struggle with a lot is like, the inverse of that of like, okay, releasing something and then like, stressing over, like, oh, I need to, like, you know, post it everywhere. I need to, like help people listen to it. And it can feel kind of kind of demoralizing, I think, in some ways. So like, it seems like you'd have a more like, healthy relationship of like, I'm releasing this for me, and I'll see what happens.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 1:35
I kind of feel like the pandemic also, you know, just kind of like this pretty dark cloud. Follow me around for a while, because, you know, I was working at a library that was like, empty. And the lights were all off all the time. I don't know why. And yeah, you know, I saw like, three, three people total. Yeah, it's just like, when I was done with it, I was just like, Well, I mean, sounds good to me. I hope anyone else candidates are like this. You know, I don't know, because I, you know, the last two albums, I definitely had a lot more context, from society to go off of. Now, all I have is like, Twitter, whatever other Doom scrolling I was doing, and yeah, the, well, it's easier for me to keep my pulse on what I want, and also what other people want, when it's like you're playing shows, you're going on tour, you know, you're doing the whole, like, go around that, like a musician does. And, you know, you're seeing people, like every corner of the country. And you can kind of see like, things from other people's perspectives and playing with other bands and see how they do stuff and like, whatever. So, pre pandemic, it was totally easier to see yourself fitting into that in some sort of way.
Ben 3:20
Yeah, I'm wondering if you ever, you know, pre pandemic, would you like, try new songs out and then be able to have like, a real time almost reaction at a concert where you're like, Oh, the feedback is good. This feels good. This is working. And then like, I imagine you're in a basement or you're in the library now. And you're like, I mean, I feel like I like this song. But I've got no inputs.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 3:44
Yeah, I think that's, that's totally, I did that a lot. Like that, that was kind of like, you hear comedians go out and, like, try out their material on the road, just to see in small clubs and like, honestly, like, that's the beauty of like, playing all the time. It's like, you know, I have this idea. I just recorded it, I showed my band. Let's see how it works. You know, and I mean, see if people like engage in it or whatever, you know, so like, that little like, you know, kind of informal Sneak Peek kind of thing was like, is a very good tool. And yes, so I mean, like, I don't know, I had like a handful of people. I can show recordings to my few bandmates and collaborators. I mean, I don't really have many of those either. So the project is like 95% me. So maybe I'll say 90? I don't know. But it's mostly me. So it's really easy to get stuck in my own thoughts and stuff. So
Phil 4:51
what like, you're saying you know, like, it's, it's great to see Dark Matters kind of getting a lot of the You know, feedback and like fan response and things like that. We're definitely going to get like into the specifics of that album and get into Devin as well. But maybe one way to break that open is, in some interviews I've read with you, you talked about how like, the process of creating an album, like Devin versus Dark Matters, how like Dark Matters, in some ways is more. Approachable isn't the right word, but it feels I guess, like it was a little bit more easily digestible. Maybe then then Devin was like, it's something that don't know, I guess, I don't know exactly how to phrase it. But like, I think you're basically talking about Dark Matters, more people can listen to it. And I'm wondering, like, kind of what the process was, like, you know, going into making this album was that like, always kind of the idea after Devon, or did that kind of happen naturally.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 5:57
The previous record was, you know, a little bit heavier, like, just started kind of drawing from a little bit more like, of a pumpkin, you know, other kinds of influences that I've had. And, you know, it's just kind of like, what I felt myself being into and wanting to explore. And, I think, moving forward you know, what I was kind of thinking was I did like, the so on, on Devon, there were a few like jazz, Jazzy, kind of interludes and like, featuring like, my, my cousin playing saxophone, and some other kind of like, just looser kind of things. And I was like, you know, why don't I try to like, do that a little bit more. And then I think, you know, I, I think part of the part of a lot of heavy music or fast paced music or whatever sludgy stuff.
You find more in common with that and your youth maybe. So I was kind of trying to scratch this itch.
And maybe, I don't know, maybe I scratched it sounds like, you know, let me let me clean it up a little bit, you know, and, and do something that maybe just focuses more on, you know, richness of melody. You know, it's easy to to sing over cleaner stuff sometimes, too. It's not sold out all the time, and just kind of like, explore what that's like, you know. So yeah, that was definitely an intentional move. I just like, I don't know. Yeah, it's, it's always like, for me, whenever there's a new, a new thing. It's always me trying to like, some out, you know, that I'm interested in and seeing how far that will take me.
Phil 8:33
Well, as it's gonna say, like, you know, I don't exactly recall how I found Dark Matters, but that was like, my, my gateway into your music. And I just remember like, the first time I was listening to the album, I was like walking to get groceries or something. And I was so floored by like, what you're talking about, like those kinds of jazzy interludes, those kinds of improv, improv improvised moments, interspersed with like, some of like, the heavier guitar parts. And that's something that, you know, with my, in my own background, like in my own music, music, listening background, I don't have a lot of experience hearing. So I don't know if that's coming from like, like, a long lineage that I'm unaware of, but like bouncing, and I was like, damn, this was really different. And I think, especially for me, like as a black person, like, I'm like, always looking for like, I want to hear like, black people and rock and like to hear that kind of that fusion. This has really, really worked for me.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 9:35
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I guess there's kind of always going to be a lot going on. You know, I grew up you know, my parents didn't really listen to rap. Music Music I did have this moment though, that I had been sharing with some of my guitar students. My my dad really loved that song. cult of personality. And yeah, he would like turn it up like super loud in the living room, and like play air guitar, and stuff. And I was just sort of like, well, this isn't your normal like r&b funk kind of thing that he usually plays. And, you know, that's, you know, Merton. Reid is like a prominent black guitarist. And yeah, so like, piecing together like a rock influence was very kind of like touching go like, you know, eventually we moved out to the suburbs, and I started hearing bands like, Green Bay Nirvana tossed around smashing pumpkins and stuff. And I was like, cool with this stuff. So then, yeah, like at different points like, my French in like, high school and middle school showed me a lot of punk rock. In college, I got more into some hardcore stuff. And yeah, that that kind of brought me to where I was and like, grass was green and speedier teas kind of mat zone, eventually, but I would say like yeah, there, you know, hip, hip hop and rap were like, my first. Like, this is like, the music that I like, really identify with. Stuff like that. So I mean, yeah, it's gonna be a little jumbled, jumbled up when you're when you're when you're talking to me. So I've sort of learned from some other friends of mine, you know, don't be afraid of that, you know, you gotta kind of like lean in. Because anyone can just like, go out and make a pop punk record. And, you know, any, any white kid can just do that thing, but they can't do. You know, they can't do the stuff that like that I do, or whatever, because my influence is just gonna be a kind of wacky, and it's not a bad thing. I used to think it was a bad thing. Can I just be like, Whoa, like, I don't feel like well, wouldn't we want to do, but turns out, you don't need to worry about that. Then I'll just do my thing and show up for work and try to make make myself happy. For once. No.
Ben 12:51
I think you I started an interview, you described Devin as genre trolling, which feels like something similar to what kind of what you're saying right here, which is like, just like such a big mishmash of kind of influences that you're making work and not kind of really worrying about, I guess, like how it fits. Can you? Yeah, talk about that a little bit more?
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 13:15
Well, I kind of got that from a friend who is like a writer who like did some thing from he did an article on me in the Baffler magazine. She was like a really cool, cool writer, but I've known him for a long time. So we had a pretty lengthy discussion, and he kind of used that. When we were talking, and I decided to talk about that more, but yeah, it's like, I kind of like, could be, because there are a lot of different types of like rock music, you know, lowercase r rock, you know, and I've been influenced by a lot of it, you know, I mean, one of the singles off that record is very, very pop punk sort of email. Sort of, you know, and that's maybe not the biggest phase of my life. But it was definitely it was a phase and I just wanted to make a song like that. You know, so it doesn't like speak to like, you know, the record as a whole, but it's just something I felt like doing. So I did it.
Phil 14:24
No, I mean, I really fuck with that, like, your whole idea of like, you know, kind of coming become becoming more comfortable with being like, the things I'm going to make are going to be a lot, they're gonna have a lot of different moving parts, and they're going to be, they're going to feel like there's gonna be friction between them. And that's what what makes it good. You know, like, I think when I when I put on Dark Matters, for instance, it's like, I feel as if I'm entering another universe. It's like something that I've never experienced before in that in that same kind of genre. And you know, I think it's an Interesting that like the title, at least how I'm how I'm thinking about the title is like, you know, there's kind of two angles to it. There's like that science aspect of like dark matter, and like these kinds of ideas that you're working through on the album around like scientific motifs, but that's juxtaposed right with like, Dark Matters as like black experience and thinking about, like multigenerational trauma, and, you know, navigating white spaces as a black person, like, those are all things that, you know, are really close to my heart and things that I don't ever hear when I listened to music, like rock music. So like when I, when I listen to this album, for instance, is to give you like, an example like runaway, I think of that track, and I'm like, damn, like, I'm never going to hear that track, again, from anyone else, you know, that feels like so only possible in this kind of soup that you've made. Right? So I think, like, that's just like a really powerful thing to kind of lean into.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 16:00
Yeah, yeah. See, only folk song are written in this group. So country music and folk music were, you know, genres of music that, like originated with the black experience, and they've sort of been redirected away. In large part, so I like, you know, I mean, it'd be great to place place myself and that sort of, kind of island may be forced to forcibly, you know, yeah, sort of, like, place myself in the middle of that and just, like, sit down, and, you know, people seem to really like that song. So I'm, I'm really happy with that. I've only played it out live once. So well, you know, we're gonna be doing more, but
Ben 16:59
I think you're touching on I had it, I had a question. Because in the kind of write up for Dark Matters. There's a moment where you're talking about wanting to inject, like actually sad themes into a genre genre, saying sadboy rock that, you know, doesn't normally, I guess, like vaguely integrates those sadboy themes. without, like, maybe actually grappling with stuff and run away think specifically, is talking about sundown? Towns, I'm wondering if you can, I guess, expand on that and talk about like, what that what that means for you,
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 17:34
I don't want to make it seem like I'm like, being dismissive of like, you know, my sad, sad boy, colleagues, colleagues or anything, because everybody struggles, you know, there's, there's stuff, it's just like, maybe my brand is struggling, it's like, comes from a place that like, I don't completely understand. They definitely wouldn't understand. And that, like, you know, maybe this is me starting to try to, like, unravel that. I started to learn a lot about certain facets of black history. That, I mean, now, you know, you see, they're trying to, like, take that stuff out of textbooks. And stuff, the you know, and it wasn't when I grew up, I mean, I came from Montgomery County, Maryland, which is in DC area, and it's pretty liberal. And like, we had a very basic class that everyone took about civil rights, like, Reconstruction Era stuff, but it was very, very basic. You know, we're not talking like, you know, fists in the air, like, this is like, very, but literally, nobody else has that stuff. And I'm just like, wow, you know, and then like, I started, you know, seeing things and in media, internet stuff, like whatever about like sundown, towns and the wave of massacres that were going on in the early about 100 years ago. And it's just brutal. It's like, it's, it's terrorism, like, and my elders never told me about this stuff. They probably were kind of like, maybe this is a little bit too heavy for you know, kid or an adolescent like handle or whatever. So, you know, you just might, you know, in fact, my parents did tell me that they never really wanted me To feel like, so angry or so, you know, displaced or whatever. So much so that I couldn't move forward on the world and, like, be the best that I could be or whatever. So I, you know, I'm definitely appreciative of that. But you know, when you start to learn about, like, kind of the brutal nature of like, post slavery in America. And, you know, you think about how, like, I don't know, like, what does mental health mean, then to somebody who is not just coming from the level playing field that we're even talking about, like, you know, even like Asians, Asian Americans, like Chinese Americans that they had a terrible go of it for a long time here. And, you know, generational trauma is something that's very real. I mean, like, you know, so then when you're dealing with, like, the trauma of not just yourself, but like, people that live two generations before you, then you're just like, where did that come from? And you have no idea. You know, what I mean, it's not necessarily coming from your own life experience, I grew up well, like I had, I had a good life, you know, I give parents you know, good family. But then, you know, sort of start to piece things together. And they're like, Oh, wow. Like, and, yeah, that's just like another way to kind of carry around and it's maybe, you know, it could be thought of as heavier, you know, but I don't want to make those types of comparisons with people because I don't want to seem too much. But for me, yeah, it's just kind of like, a lot of the times when I see like, some, you know, man, on stage is like, sad about like, like, like his girlfriend, like, liking somebody else or something. I'm just kind of like, dude, like, you're gonna sit, sit down, write a whole song about like, like that. Or like, why don't you know what I mean? I feel
Ben 22:32
that 100%. And I feel like that's a very, like, genuine. Yeah. And I guess I'm wondering how you're thinking about, you know, how your album fits into that as a way to kind of subvert that. Because I think, yeah, it's true. Like, I think it's true that a lot of those sadboy albums can feel like when you scratch with them, I'll look at the lyrics. You know, sometimes I'm like, Oh, this is this is about nothing, right? Well, I
Phil 22:57
look at something like like the glow of I think that's a really good good track to pull out. Because, yeah, like everything you're saying, like I really empathize with because it's, you know, recently, this is kind of a tangent, but like, recently, like, I just looked at a little bit of the speech that kid Han Ji brown Jackson, the new Supreme Court Justice did were when she went, she was accepting. And she was basically talking about how like, you know, for her as a black woman, her grandma was a slave and like, could never imagine like her and the position that she's in now. And I think like, from when you're, for people who aren't black as well, especially white people, it's like, I think there can be a level of like, looking at black experience and feel. And it's so it feels so outlandish and horrible, that it can feel like science fiction, in some ways, like, how could this be real? How could these things have happened? And I think like, in some ways, you know, your album, it does a really good job, I think of presenting so many of these things like whether it's the sundown towns, or lynchings or Klansmen, or even like, I think something that I really liked is that in songs like the glow up, or winner's circle, you have these moments, and feel free to correct me, I guess, I guess I'll say this is how I feel when I'm listening to your album. There are these moments where I can see myself navigating white spaces growing up and maybe like not being comfortable with my black identity or taking pride in that those parts of my identity and I see a lot of that kind of coming out and some of the tracks and it's like I think that alone is disrupting the space in a good way. And then songs like the glow up. Sorry, going I'm Tanja but songs like the globe I think are interesting because for all the reason that you that you said But also, like you're pointing out this kind of duality of experience that black people have have, like, I love the line where you're talking about, like, the chain is the thing that sets us free. But it's also the thing that imprisoned us. And, you know, that's something that, you know, if you're, if you're not black, you can, you would never be able write that song, you know, so. But at the top of the interview, you're talking about how, like, in some ways, like, you know, you, when you approach a project, it's like, okay, you have these interests, that you're interested in exploring, and you and you make the record, and you put it out there. And it's like, you know, whatever happens happens, in some sense. And in some senses, and I'm curious, like, when you were making Dark Matters, thinking about some of those themes on the album, especially related to history, like, I think, like you were saying, like, the Tulsa massacre, for instance, is like one that you're talking about, most people aren't going to hear about it until, like they're older and probably go out of their way to hear about it. Were those kinds of things that you were putting in to the album, just because, like, those are things you were learning about at the time? Or were you in some ways, maybe, like, using this space as a way to get some of that history out in a different way. Because I find it's like a really interesting, like, in an album, put to put it in an album. It's like a really interesting way of potentially getting people to learn about that history.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 26:34
I would say as far as like, wanting to, like, farm or whatever, like, I don't know, I think it probably comes from a place of that, like, you know, anger. And me trying to, like, sort of, you know, yep, just get that out of my system. Just yeah, I mean, you know, in a big way, some some sometimes that's that stuff gets to me, and I don't always have a way of expressing it in a way that's, you know, obviously legal or anything. And I'm allowed to do that, when I record music, so when we get some things off my chest, and you know, it feels it feels good. But yeah, I don't know, man, you can't, like people can't even most of the time, tell what you're saying, anyway, when you're playing live or whatever. So a lot of the times you just kind of gotta hope for the best and that way, but for me, yeah, it's just like, you know? Yeah, it's just coming from a place of like, genuine confusion and anger. You know, and if people can learn from it, then great, but it's not necessarily like, my intention.
Phil 28:02
Do you like playing live? I know, you're talking at the top of the show that like you're, you're planning on touring the album a little bit? But
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 28:12
yeah, yeah, I love it. That's most of the reason why I do this. Recording is, is whatever to me. Most of most of my enjoyment from my past bands, even less from just, you know, interacting live with my bandmates. And having fun on stage and sort of having that space. Ice I always say to people, or, you know, new people that I met with, you know, who maybe never done that or, like, you know, when they're like talking about I can never get on stage and like, perform something or do something like that. And I just sort of looked at it, like, you know, like, when I had a long day of work, and I have a show, or I had a long like, you know, week or month of work and I have a show to look forward to you know, that's like kind of the one time that I get to like Yeah, it's like my time. Yeah, this is my little, little 45 minutes. Or, you know, I have to just say my piece and you know, anything goes within reason and you get to be loud, you get to be quiet, you get you know, you get to do whatever you need to do. And you know, a lot of people also like don't get that they get to like go to the gym or something, you know what I mean? Like in adulthood, especially like, so for me, it's always sort of like felt like this, like sacred, you know, kind of way for me to like, do with dealing with life, I remember, this is way earlier on when I was like really getting the music. And you know, I wasn't very good at Jazz at this point. And my teacher at the time was like really trying to get me to go to this, like, you know, supposedly open, like sit in session at this place in DC. And technically speaking, it was, but most of the people that went there had been playing for like decades. And there's like, is one or two guys that were just like, you know, they look like they could have had a job anywhere doing anything. And this was just something that they like, did to like Taiwan, you know, just get it out. And they were switching instruments. I just one guy in particular, he's like, ripping on piano. And then he got on Play killer drums. And it just looked like he was having the most fun of his life. And he didn't care who is playing with, he was just having so much fun. It's like this cathartic experience where I'm, and, you know, he was just dressed like, whatever. And seemed like, he just like, had a drink, and like, went home afterwards. And I was just like, you know, there's something like really special about that guy, he has this like, immense power, because he can play so well, and so freely. But he's just some guy walking down the street, and he's just carrying this with him. And he has the power to express himself on that level. Like, that's so cool. You know, so
Ben 31:37
I really, really love that. I mean, I'm wondering if there's a, do you feel like you're at the at the place of being able to express at that level of just being able to go on and be like, I truly can kind of do whatever and feel comfort in, in, you know, this space and in my body? And what I'm getting to do up here?
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 31:59
Well, I mean, it depends on who I'm playing. You know, I think I think if I was playing with some people that were like, on the same wavelength, for instance, like we could probably show up with like, nothing planned, and like, figure it out. And I think that's really like, a really special wavelength to be on with people. So in some senses, yes. I feel like, I had this one experience. So the guy who recorded my stuff, he's recorded all my records. We've known each other since music school, and we are in dance. He was in grasses, green also. And we've just been playing together. for a really long time. We had this gig at SUNY Purchase. And a friend of mine was going to start sub on base, and we really, were just doing it because they're giving us a whole bunch of money to play college. You know, it was like a chill show. It wasn't like, credit, you know. And he learned all the songs in the wrong key, because like, my earlier songs were like, two and a half step down or whole step down. And yeah, I was I told him this, probably, like 25 times. You know, we had never played together, we didn't get to practice together, you know, he was just gonna show up. He's a phenomenal, like, basis, like, He's incredible. You know, and he's, he's playing like, multiple gigs a week with, like, all these different people and stuff like that. So you know, I trusted but, you know, we're about were like, setting up about to play. And he was like, so what, which one of these songs are the different keys? And I just, like, looked at him, and I was like, all of them. And that the his face just went like blank, like, Oh, crap. You know, and because me and Mike are on such like a comfortable level, we just kind of looked at each other. And we're like, okay, so he just went in and just like, we're super confident about everything. We got weird with it in the little spaces where he didn't know what you're supposed to do. And he was good enough to kind of fake it. And legit, they're like, college kids coming up to us being like, yeah, that was like, really, really, really awesome. Like, it was like, Cool. Like, I was just like, Did you realize that one of the people on stage didn't know any of the songs? And they're like, Oh, really? And I was like, wow, he wants to really like, cover it off really well. And also just like, that confidence and just like having fun also to that element that like freeing element that you get, you know when you're performing that must have come across and So like, you know, so in that way, I guess maybe so I've actually have been toying around with the idea of just doing more like songs like the jazz with nom de things. Yeah. And just doing that live with like, a few different musicians and having that be like another iteration of Monica, but I haven't gotten that far in my head yet. But it'd be, it'd be really fun, I think.
Phil 35:28
No, that's, that's interesting. Like, I think, you know, this season of the show, we've been talking to, you know, people like from different different industries and, and stuff. But I think one thing that has been true with like, everybody we've talked to is kind of, like navigating how to make like, navigating like the reality of like, the dream. So like, in this case, it's like playing music, and like doing that, doing that as a career or like doing that in a way that feels good. And in life sustaining. I'm wondering, like, what's kind of your relationship to, to music? Now? Like, is it something that you how am i How should I ask this? What I'm trying to say, man, like, I'm kind of just kind of, like, a lot of people I understand.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 36:24
Well, I mean, you know, everybody's different. And honestly, I live in New York City and Brooklyn and stuff. And a lot of people have aspirations, you know, yeah, dude, big dreams. And sometimes that means, like, quote, unquote, making it or whatever. And, for me, you know, nothing's happened overnight. Nothing's happened, you know, to the point where, like, I can't go to CVS and, you know, on my own, I have to send somebody for me, because the masses are just gonna hand me, you know, I'm gonna have so for me, yeah, like, I think it's, it's more like, the, if you're not getting that satisfaction, just from like, the, you know, the joy from playing, whatever like that, like, chances are, you know, unless you're like, Taylor Swift or something, like, you probably shouldn't, like, devote like, too much into this, because you're not going to get like, it's not gonna seem worth it. Because, like, you get kicked around a lot. And like it economically also, it's just not. It's not sustainable. Like, so, you know? If, if, if what you want is the things that I was just talking about before, and you feel that way. Whether you're like, highly skilled or not, if you have the feeling and you got the spirit, go for it, follow that feeling because life's too short, you know, but like, if you just want to be like, famous or something, like, you're gonna get pretty frustrated, unless you're lucky. But like, yeah, it's just, I don't know, for me, like, if you're measuring success, or like, whatever I'm trying to go after. The only way to stay grounded and feeling good about myself is to kind of focus on though, you know, those little things and find joy in that.
Ben 38:44
No, and that story you told, I feel like, that's one word, where I'm like, oh, yeah, this person is doing exactly the thing that they want to be doing. Right? Like, I don't know how many how many people have that experience of like, oh, I want to be just like this person who can just walk onto the stage and be so comfortable. And yeah, I feel like we've talked to a lot of people who are poor. And I'll say this is true of me too. You just kind of muddle through or you're like, I think this feels good. This sometimes feel good, feels good. But I don't always know if I'm headed in the right direction.
Phil 39:19
No, I mean, we, at the beginning of the year, we talked to this musician Matthew Millia, who's like a singer songwriter type and you know, something that has really stuck with me that he was talking about this basically in the same vein as you is like, the idea of compromise and like how he doesn't view it as compromise when it's like, you know, taking like a more boring job or whatever. And then like doing music on the side and how he views it more as like calibration. This is kind of like this different way of calibrating your life in order to do the thing that you actually like, and how that's really sustaining.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 39:56
Yeah, well, there's a lot of stuff you can do. That, like, for instance, like, will sustain your life. Yeah. And I mean, and that doesn't have to be like something like you're meant to do, you know, you can, there's a lot of stuff for a person to get into. It doesn't have to be like this, like, deep passionate thing. I just think like, with something like music, you know? I don't know, you can't, it's not for the faint of heart. Because it can suck, it can really suck. You know? I don't know.
Phil 40:33
No, I mean, we, at the beginning of the year, we talked this musician, Matthew Millia, who's like a singer, songwriter type, and, you know, something that has really stuck with me that he was talking about, that's basically in the same vein as you is like, the idea of compromise, and like, how he doesn't view it as compromise when it's like, you know, taking like, a more boring job or whatever. And then, like doing music on the side, and now he views it more as like calibration, this is kind of like this different way of calibrating your life in order to do the thing that you actually like, and how that's really sustaining, you know?
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 41:12
Yeah, I mean, he's just kind of like, your expectations just have to be like, you know, of this world. I mean, you know, what I mean? Like, it's okay to have big dreams, you know, I don't want to poopoo that, or, like, make fun of anybody who like, you know, really wants to be huge and great. But, yeah, I mean, that's not going to happen for everybody. And there's really no shame. And, you know, I mean, I, now I teach kids guitar. And, you know, you don't, we don't make a lot of money at the place that I work at, but it's fine. And, you know, I play my little shows and stuff, and I work at a venue. You know, whatever I can do, really, and, you know, some of it's not glamorous. But if I can still, you know, have access to playing around here and playing with the people that I play with, whatever it is, at the end of the day, it's either enough hours in the day to make it all work. And it doesn't have to be all one or the other. Like, trust me, I would love to just be on the road all the time. And for this to be my job and whatever. But you know, I'm at peace with the fact that, you know, it's not that simple. And this is just my way of doing it for now.
Phil 42:44
Yeah, you know, I mean, I think something you said earlier about, like, going to going to play shows, and like having that 45 minutes, or however long to kind of be in this community of other people who are all interested in the same thing. Yeah, I'm finding that especially since the pandemic, like that's so powerful, and like, really easy to underestimate, like, you know, like, I went to grad school for creative writing, and, like, all those years doing that, like, you know, you're surrounded by other people who are writers and are interested in those things. And then when you graduate, like a lot of those people move away and you you really underestimate, like, how powerful that is. Yeah.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 43:26
I can see that because writing, you know, you know, it's yeah, it's a different, different beast. But when you have people to bounce ideas off of or other people's stories, you can kind of draw inspiration from or whatever. I mean, having that workshopping community is probably very, very powerful. For sure.
Ben 43:49
It is, is there anything that we haven't asked you that you're like, you would want to say?
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 43:57
Oh, well, we covered a lot of bases.
Phil 44:02
Well, Devin, I mean, this has been great. I really appreciate you answering all of our questions and coming on. It's been really good to talk to you.
Devin McKnight(Maneka) 44:15
Cool, thanks. Yeah. Happy to do it. Thanks for asking me. I love doing stuff like this. So it's fun.
