Abhi (Venba) on How Food Brings Family Together and Going All in On Game Development
Episode Description
Abhi is a Game Designer and Programmer working on his new narrative cooking game, Venba. Together with his Sam Elkana, the Art Director for the game, the two head Visai Studios, based in Toronto-based.
Venba is a narrative cooking game, where you play as an Indian immigrant mom, who immigrates to Canada with her family in the 1980s. Players will cook various dishes and restore lost recipes, hold branching conversations and explore in this story about family, love, loss and more.
We talked with Abhi about the creation of the game, the importance of cooking in his life today, and how food connected his family together even during hard times. This is a conversation about what it means to follow your dreams, and forge a path for them no matter what it takes.
Hosted by Phillip Russell and Ben Thorp
Episode Notes
You can visit the Venba website here.
You can follow Venba here.
Visit our website: Originstory.show
Follow us on Twitter @originstory_
Do you have feedback or questions for us? Email us theoriginstorypod@gmail.com
Cover art and website design by Melody Hirsch
Origin Story original score by Ryan Hopper
-
Phil 00:18
What's good everybody? Welcome to origin story, the podcast that interviews creators about where they came from, to understand how they got here. My name is Philip Russell, and I'm with my co host, Ben Thorpe. And Ben, today is a really cool conversation. We talked to ABI who is the designer and programmer of an upcoming game called Venza, which is a narrative cooking game where you play as an Indian immigrant mom, who emigrated to Canada with her family in the 1980s. And players are cooking various dishes to restore this last recipe cookbook. And there's like branching conversations and you explore the story around family love, and loss. And, you know, this is one of those games that again, it's not out yet, but I've been seeing it on Twitter for like, a year now. And I was so I've been so excited for it. So it was really interesting to kind of just hear a little bit about, you know, how it came to be, and just more about ABI himself. So
Ben 01:21
right, and I feel like Phil, you should that like part of the tea up here is I think the interest is, this is a game that is very much about food and about, like, what food is and what food does the way that food is, you know about more than food and about more than, you know, food, but it's also about connections and relationships. And you I would say both of us, but you definitely more than me, or food heads. We love food. We talk about food all the time. Every day, I'm posting pictures of the lunch that I'm having into the chat. And we're talking about like, here's what I'm eating. Here's what I'm cooking up. Oh, wow. Thinking about this new recipe, like, here's what we're doing. I feel like food is a big part of our lives. And so I think that in a lot of ways, it's like why this was on our radar as Oh look a video game that's also thinking about food and how it's more complex than just like what you're throwing into a dish. It was perfect for us for sure.
Phil 02:14
I mean, I think Ben isn't like poke a Wednesday or something like that, that you post in the chat
Ben 02:19
as poker as poker days now, but yes, every every week I go and I get a bowl up. Okay, from the the pokey hibachi place that's up the street.
Phil 02:28
Yeah, I mean, for sure. I think all that really rings true. You know, sportful, for instance, is like one of my favorite podcasts. I'm always looking at cooking videos online. So it was really cool to talk to avi, who it turns out is also really interested in cooking, in addition to game design, and stuff like that. And, you know, like you were saying one of the things that's always interested me about cooking and food in general is, obviously food tastes good and all that. But I really liked that kind of cultural and cultural connection and how it how it relates to one's identity and their background. You know, we all have specific memories and emotions associated with the different things that we eat. both good and bad. So I think in that way, this conversation is so much about that, in addition to learning about what Venza will play, like, Abby is really interested in how food connects people together, even during times of stress and, and, and disagreement. And I think that that was a really interesting perspective to hear about, especially in games where, you know, so many cooking games are based around kinda like competition or like stress as a much different approach.
Ben 03:50
Right. I mean, I think this is a line that we kind of use in a separate interview, he mentioned this that like everybody, no matter if you're fighting, no matter what kind of the conflict is, you all have to come back to the dinner table at some point. And so thinking about like, meals is a thing that you share that like no matter what the conflict is, there's some kind of resolution there. Yeah, so I just had a really great conversation, and I'm gonna needle you one more time. Also, Phil's gently underselling his relationship to food a little bit I will get videos sometimes it'll be like, I swear to god it's like one in the morning your time I'll like open Instagram up and you've sent me this video of someone making this like really just decadent dish. And I just know I'm like Phil has been scrolling through food videos for hours to get to that
Phil 04:37
yeah, like pandemic since the pandemic I feel like you know, my partner and I we got a Dutch oven and now it's all about like, super long cook time French cooking breeze raised me and all that so yeah, it's like definitely leveled up since having to you know, stay at home or and And of turns out, Bobby also is interested in that. So basically, we're kindred spirits. But yeah, I don't want to belabor the labor too much, but really fun conversation. If you all enjoy the conversation, definitely tell a friend, tweet about it or you know, tell your mom, whatever. leave a review on Apple podcasts. And you know, subscribe, follow us on Spotify, all that stuff really helps in terms of getting more people listening to the show. And I think we're really interested right now and like, who else you'd want to hear on origin story. So yeah, with that in mind, let's jump right into the episode. Today, we're talking to Bobby, who is the designer and programmer of a new game called Venza by the size studios. Avi, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Abhi 06:11
Thank you so much for having me.
Phil 06:13
Yeah, you know, how are you doing today? What, you know, you just came back, I think from the Tribeca festival showing off the game. How was that?
Abhi 06:22
Yeah, that was a very surreal for us. I, you know, I still can't, you know, I see the like, you know, articles or sometimes on Twitter, I just see people talking about Web. And to me, it's very surreal that this game that I've been making, but people from out of my bedroom is reaching this level of success that we didn't expect. So yeah, we're very grateful for opportunities like Tribeca, for sure.
Phil 06:55
That's great. Now it's, it's funny, like on Twitter, I feel like I saw like screenshots of Venmo, like a your year or two ago. And I immediately was like, damn, I need to know what this game is all about. One because like, I just I'm a huge lover of food and cooking. And I saw I saw the gameplay screenshots. And I was like, I need to know what this says. And maybe it's a kind of backpedal just a second, could you just tell us a little bit about what WNBA is as a game, and whatnot?
Abhi 07:24
Sure. So when via is a narrative cooking game, where you play as the title character, called member, she moves from India, to Canada, in the late 1980s. And she decides to start a family here. And the game is just about, you know, every level you cook a certain dish, and every level, the family is at a different point of time in your life. So we sort of use cooking as a lens to examine, okay, where's the family at now? What are they doing? What are their challenges? How are they growing and changing? And, yeah, so, you know, you have one half, that's all narrative, you have dialogue choices, and the other half you have, you get to cook and solve these puzzles. Because the idea is that, you know, when she comes from India to Canada, her recipe book, it gets damaged on the flights. So the recipes are like incomplete. And we have like, little hints, and you use that to like, finish the recipes yourselves. And then, you know, proceed with the story. That's, that's the general gist of it.
Ben 08:33
Yeah, can you kind of talk just about maybe a where the idea came from and be, you know, when I see a game like this, where, you know, the central mechanic is cooking, my first question is, do you do you like cooking yourself? Are you someone who actually enjoys cooking? And what are the kinds of things what are the kinds of dishes that maybe you most enjoy?
Abhi 08:54
So I, for me, the idea came from actually, Sam, who's the artist on this game, Sam and I, we used to work at the same company. And we wanted to make this. We were all we always wanted to make a game together. And we were actually picking a completely different game. Something called balloon man, which was this game about this depressed superhero? Who, whose whose only power is that he can make balloons and stuff like that. So and like, you know, there's like the Ironman equivalent in that world. So he doesn't really compare to that rate. So it was supposed to be like this Megaman kind of Bosphorus game retake on actual superheroes with like, actual powers, but all you have are like bones kind of thing. Right? So we were working on that, actually. And then one day, I don't know I was having a conversation with my family. And then suddenly, I just had an idea for a simple theme. And I texted that design immediately. And he he he and I both strongly felt that we should make this game instead. So we just put both Men are old. And that's how we came onto this. And I think the idea comes from a lot of things. But at the core, it's about the relationship between a mother and her son, specifically, one, where, you know, the mother is from a completely different culture, but the Son is growing up very rapidly assimilated, and the differences and the kind of bridge that, you know, comes with in between them. So that's what we wanted to explore. And, you know, we thought, the idea of like, one thing I was, one thing I found interesting is that with a lot of immigrant kids here, like they might forget their language, or, you know, they might not watch movies from back home and stuff like that. But one thing that they cannot get away from, it's like the food like they have grown up eating it, right, there is no choice. And so I thought, like, that is a constant link we can use to tell the story. And as for the second question, do I like to do 100%? Yes, I definitely love to cook a lot. I am more than, like, I watch so many food videos on on YouTube, like recipes and stuff like that. And I watch like, I watch movies that have cooking scenes in them. Even if the movie is bad, just because I just, I just love that whole idea. So for me, the kinds of dishes that are like, I like very challenging dishes, dishes that take like, you know, if anything, says, Oh, this has an eight hour cook time, or, you know, a 16 hour of prep time, like I'm in for that I'll dedicate a whole week for it. So yeah, I definitely love the thing.
Phil 11:49
That's interesting. You know, it's something I was thinking about when I was listening to another interview that you did, and just listening and listening to you talk now is, you know, something that I always appreciate with food is that, like you're saying in some forms. Food is a way of expressing culture and identity and connecting with others. And in some ways, food is kind of like, like a living memory. It's this thing that you can pass on to others. And you said something that was really interesting. In another interview, where you were you were talking about how like, you know, in a family unit, like you could be in an argument or there could be something that there could be tensions between different family members. But the one thing that is always true, as like you're saying is that everybody comes together at the dinner table and has to have have food? And I'm curious, I don't know, it's a really interesting sentiment. I'm curious, like, what was your relationship to food growing up?
Abhi 12:48
I think, yeah, it was definitely very much a fan of my mother's food growing up, and I still continue to be. And I think, for me, thankfully, I had no qualms about like, I came to Canada when I was 12. And, you know, firstly in school and things like that, my mom back me, you know, traditional food that I grew up eating. And, you know, I was self conscious about eating it in front of others, because of the strong smell and stuff like that. But most of that is in my head. But I learned to love that pretty quickly. A funniest funny story is like, all throughout university, it was me and a very close friend of mine. And I would always eat the eat my lunch close to him. And I would open the lid just a little bit because like I was afraid of like not to ask to Him with all these foreign flavors and smells. And I did that for four years. And then we met met up recently when we were talking about food, and he's like, and it was always the same lunch and he said, What was that thing that you brought in your lunchbox and always smelled delicious. I was like, wow, like he had a completely different. Like that insecurity was completely in my in my head, right? So I've grown, I think to accept it and celebrate it a lot more. And I think nowadays, I tried to cook more at home, cook the recipes that my mother likes to make. And you know, it doesn't even come close to her skill, obviously, but but that's fine. I just like, like cleanly socialism. I think the My biggest difference between me and my mother is like my mother cooks for others, you know, but I'm very selfish. I cook for myself, like my satisfaction. I think it ends as soon as I finished cooking, like I'm happy. It's like, oh, I made it right. I couldn't. Like it doesn't really affect me. If people hear it and say, Oh, it's so great or you know, stuff like that. Like for me it's about self expression only, which isn't completely dressed to help my mother cooks, she would be crushed if I didn't like it, you know? So, yeah.
Ben 15:08
What is, you know, are you able to, I guess, cook around your mother, you know, my dad is probably the big Cook of our family. And it's so hard to kind of be in a kitchen with him. Because he's always like micromanaging everything that's happening and will kind of stand over the stove. And he's like, No, you know, there's not enough spice in there. What is what is that relationship like with with your parents when it comes to cooking?
Abhi 15:33
Yeah, that's, that's so interesting. I think it's the same for me the first time, the first couple of times, I had my mom over in the kitchen. Like I had her taste it, and then she paste it in, and then immediately just went and started putting spices and photos. I like just, like, pushed me out of the cooking, basically. But I know, she has every right to do that, I think. But what I found is like I can cook like this is that she's not exposed to like, you know, Italian cuisine and stuff like, like that kind of stuff. She lets me own completely. But, and then recently, I've been trying to cook more healthier stuff for some of her health reasons, like keto or like, you know, low carb, like, that kind of stuff was very new to her. And she lets that happen. So that's how I found a way to, like,
Ben 16:21
get into have some space. I like that. Yeah.
Phil 16:24
You know, I think I think another interesting thing that I've been reading about venda is that you've described it, like, it's a narrative game, but it's also like a puzzle game. And I think that's really interesting with cooking games, because you look at games like like overcooked or, or how cooking is operates. And like, I don't know, Breath of the Wild or RPG games. It's very, like, not related to the actual act of cooking. And I think the puzzle aspect that you you all are focusing in on is so true to like learning a recipe or, or delivering on a recipe, and I'm wondering if you could just talk a bit about that, and what it's been like, you know, developing that kind of that kind of gameplay.
Abhi 17:06
Yeah, that I think this is one of the most challenging aspects for me personally. Because when I started this game, I knew I wanted to make a narrative cooking game, but like, the game is about the story. But you know, we need a gameplay, waited for the story to sit on, and, you know, deliver it right. So, and then when I looked at other cooking names at the time, you know, the prominent ones like cooking bomber or something like that, it will focus on like, you know, Katyayani and three times or, you know, stuff like that. But for me, sometimes I felt like that clashed with the story that I was trying to tell, because sometimes the story can be very emotional, and serious. And like, it doesn't really lend itself to our Kelly gameplay, right. And I also felt that, you know, is there something new we can do here? And so I had that that's when the idea of like, okay, what are we, you know, we have the recipe book, but it's damaged, and so you only have close to have put the recipes together. So you have to, like use hints and puzzles and try to solve them and stuff like that. In retrospect, I think I didn't think that through entirely before I started the game like that, because turns out, like, you know, especially with the kind of recipes that we show, there's like 30 different steps, or like, you know, 40 different ingredients, you know, so it is a huge challenge to figure out how to make a puzzle out of it. Initially, I, you know, I, I started, initially, the i It was very true to form like I had, like, you have 10 steps, and number two is missing. And number four is missing ingredient in this ingredient that was mentioned in number three. So, you know, like that kind of stuff. And like it was very cooking, similar simulator kind of approach. But it didn't, technically, you can call that a puzzle, but it didn't make for very fun gameplay. So it took me a while before, you know, I had to accept that, you know, we have to become soft goods. As a game, you know, you have to skew and stretch and abstract some of these mechanics. And instead, what I did was, I would try to find, instead of trying to show recipes that I liked, I tried to find recipes that lended itself to a puzzle naturally. You know, and in case, you know, I'm showing off a very complicated puzzle, instead of showing of the whole thing, I would focus on just one part of it and then the most interesting part and see how to find how we can make a recipe out of that, or how do we make a puzzle out of that, you know, that took a lot of iteration. It took a lot of research, because I felt that you know, people might expect you know, a lot of authenticity and accuracy From whatever we show off in this game, so how do we balance that, but also balance, you know, game design and, you know, actually making a fun game. So that took a lot of iterations to figure out.
Ben 20:13
One of the things I think Phil and I were talking about before is I was I was wondering how true to life these recipes are, is this something where, you know, after playing, I'll actually get a good idea of like, how to make a dish, or these things that you had to pare down enough that you're like, oh, this probably isn't one to one.
Abhi 20:29
Yeah. So I think the rule that I had for myself is that I'm not going to show anything that's incorrect or inaccurate, just for the sake of the game. But I won't show you the whole thing, either. So the idea is that, and like, I think, in retrospect, I think that's actually a good decision, because I'm just because we are making a game about cooking. And what I quickly realize is that for a lot of people, this might be the first time they're looking at any of these recipes. So I, what I didn't want to be is the authority on these recipes, because we're not qualified for that, right. But we are, we're just game designers. We're not necessarily chefs or cooks or stuff like that. But what I what I hope to do is give you enough of an idea that your curiosity is high enough that it encourages you to learn about these recipes on your own. But you have like a, it's like, it's it's like you are watching someone do it. You know, like, if you watch somebody make it, you know, it's not the same thing as a full detailed list of instructions. But it still gives you an enough of a tutorial for you to try it on your own. But mainly we are focusing on, you know, raising your curiosity, rather than, you know, a straight up educational kind of game.
Phil 21:49
That's interesting. Out of curiosity, Have you have you shown your mom, any of the recipes in the game as you've been given you critique centers of what's happening?
Abhi 22:02
I think, interestingly, I don't try to show the work I do to my parents a lot. Like I try to keep that part away from them. I don't know why. But I think somebody else forwarded them, like an article. And they're like, Wait, you're making this? I'm like, Yeah, and so I showed them the trailer and things like, and, you know, for them, they don't fully understand games as a medium. Like, it's very new for them. So they're, they're shocked that people are like, oh, you know, they're just looking at it like, Oh, it's just cooking. You know, people want to do this in a video game, you know? So that's how they're looking? What
Ben 22:43
what is your, I guess your relationship to video games? And yeah, how did you kind of get into playing games?
Abhi 22:51
Yeah, my relationship actually started at a very young age. My parents, they brought home this console, called the Terminator back in India, and that is a bootleg NES console. And it had a cartridge that said, 999 games in one. And if you put it in, it's just 15 games, but we'll just repeat until it's time ridden 99. And so it had like Super Mario Brothers and Duck Hunt and all those kind of games, right? That's when it started. And my parents actually took off, took days of work, to beat Mario Brothers on the NES. And then they were like, Oh, this is too addictive. And it's probably not good for us. And then it is this award winning games entirely. But yeah, back in when I was growing up in India, like, you know, it was a lot of piracy, because we didn't have access to we didn't even know that it was piracy. Like I played Pokemon, like the original blue or, you know, on the computer, but with an emulator, but I've never seen a Gameboy in real life, like until I am that I couldn't finish, you know, getting all the Pokemon cuz you have to trade it to do that, right. And I didn't know how to beat the game until I came here. And then I saw that people are playing it in in their handhelds, and like, Oh, this is how you're actually supposed to play it. And so, you know, it was a lot of, you know, weird. Like, you know, normally people who start Gaming here they go through the consoles, but for us, it was just this mishmash of like, there was Sonic the Hedgehog three and then GTA the next day, you know, so it was, it was all PC and I was, I was very convinced that what I wanted to do was in video games from a very young age. I think I had a hard time convincing my parents to see that as a as a viable career choice. So around great Well, what I did was I took computer science And, and what my argument was like, you know, I'll go into it, and you know, become a programmer, which is completely fine. But I'll use it to get into games. That was the plan I made back when I was in grade 12. And surprisingly, like, that's, that's exactly what happened. Like, I got a job as a mobile game developer. And then that's where I met people like Sam, and then we started working on getting like,
Ben 25:26
did you have to be, I guess, like, covert about your game playing just because your your folks were like, actually, we're disavowing this because it is addictive.
Abhi 25:35
Um, when I was younger, for sure, like, uh, you know, we it was banned, and you know, we would sneak in games and etc. And definitely a lot of those things happen. I think, as I was getting older, you know, they started except that, you know, he's not, he's not growing out of this, right. So, you know, they were much more accepting of that. But when I was younger, yeah, there was a lot of sneaking in games. There's a lot of trading games, you know, classmates and a lot of those things. Yeah.
Phil 26:06
That's interesting. Do you currently, I think you had told me over email that right? Recently, you've, you've been able to kind of go all in, in game development, where prior you were working like a full time job and kind of meeting Venza and balloon man, on the side, maybe I'd love to hear a little bit about that journey, and kind of where you are now.
Abhi 26:28
Yeah, it's been pretty, that's I think that's what contributes the surreal illness right now where I, you know, Seaman by the Tribeca festival and stuff like that, because for us, like, we didn't see a path to full time game development for a very long time. So I remember, I think we were making below nine, and then we started making a member on the site, and my plan was, you know, we'll get, we'll get a vertical slice done. And then we'll show it off to publishers, you know, we'll pitch to a bunch of them. And then hopefully, we'll get a, we'll get a publishing offer that will enable us to, you know, do this full time, right. And I think, in the summer of 2020, is when I started pitching to a lot of different publishers, but you know, a lot, some of them liked it, some of them, you know, didn't, and I understand it's a very risky game to back, right. And I slowly just started, like, I realized, like, you know, this is a very hard game to sell, at least to publishers, you know. So we were like, wondering how to pay for it to be to Kickstarter and all that kind of stuff. And, and that's when we did the wholesome games, trailer and the trailer that that's out there for remember, we did that for the wholesome games showcase. We put that together in a month, and it was around December that was premiered. And then the reaction to that trailer was completely, like, unexpected. Like, we blew up quite a bit, you know, we got to articles read a lot of press attention. Our wish lists were through the roof. And so like to me, then the publishers and like, even platforms, interest started coming in quite a bit. So to me, that felt like proof that, like, we proved it already that oh, there is a target audience for this game, there is a market for this game. And now that there is you know, people are much more comfortable, you know, backing it in, in whatever format. But after that we were able to, through a combination of because we're in Ontario, through a combination of Ontario grants, and also some things that I can say it, we were able to secure enough funding to make the game full time. So we finally I think, this year is when I finally went, quit my job. And around April, I think, started working full time on
Ben 29:07
can you kind of just talk about, you know, I guess, like a how that felt, but just that process, you know, Phil and I had been talking to a lot of folks, and I think he told you, you know, one of the themes that I think is emerging from this season is just talking to people about the reality of the dream that it's like, it takes a lot of work. You're doing things on the side, maybe they'll work out maybe they won't. How has that process felt to you?
Abhi 29:32
Yeah, it was pretty rough, to be honest. Because I in my head, I was always like, Oh, this is just a my day job was mine was my temporary job. You know, in my head, I was always like, I'm always gonna, you know, this is just a temporary thing. I'm going to be a full time game developer at some point, you know, and I've been saying that for years, right. And when when when I was very confident that you know, something will come off it But you're facing those rejections quite a bit, I started to wonder like, okay, maybe even member cannot be done full time, you know? So then I was like, Okay, do I just hand up? The whole game development thing? Do I, you know, pursue a different career? Like, I don't know, do I be a software engineer, or something? And, you know, and to me, that was very crushing, because this whole time, the thing that I thought was a temporary job is turning out to be is actually my actual career. You know what I mean? So I had to face that reality a little bit, but it was very crushing at that point. But that's around the time when the trailer blew up, and it sort of saved us. But yeah, it is a it is a very hard it is a, it's really hard for people. Like, you know, there's the hope, even people who can, like, there's the whole idea that you can quit your job and, you know, use your savings to get you through game development. But like, some of that stuff is not possible for me, like I have to support my parents and like, you know, there's a, I need to put money on the table at the end of every month. So there are those harsh realities, right. So and it's also not super clear how to break in to the industry. So there were a lot of misconceptions that I had. And if I didn't have, you know, good advice, or good mentorship, actually, from Aika, who has, who went out of his way to really, you know, put us on the right path. If we didn't have that, I think, you know, we might have even said yes to a couple of bad deals and things like that, right. So in a way, the plan that I made is like, I'll make something like Ember, and then people will see that it's cool. And, you know, it will lead to something was the rough sketch. And in a way, that's, that's exactly what happened. But there was a lot of ups and downs in that planning.
Phil 32:06
That's, I mean, it's good to hear, I think it's something that that Ben and I empathize a lot with, because, you know, both him and I are working full time jobs. And we do like all these creative projects on the side from origin story to other creative writing type things. And yeah, I mean, I think it's just speaking for myself, it's like, you know, I work in and marketing during the day, and it's not something I went to school for, it's not something I'm like that interested in. If I were to be, like, very objective about it, it's like, it's a good job, and it pays well, and, and all that, but it's like, it's not what I want to do. It's like, I want to do this stuff, like talking to you and, you know, make this podcast grow. And, yeah, it's, it's really just heartening to hear like that kind of journey of, like, you know, you just kind of stuck with it. And it eventually happened. And you found the project. That was right.
Abhi 33:00
Um, yeah, but I think it's, it is a game of luck, more than anything else, right. Like, you know, if, if I made it, let's say, you know, just as likely is that, you know, there's a scenario where I didn't, you know, so. And I also think, like, I really hated the mindset that it put me in. Because I, you know, when I first initially started making member, it was all about for me, just the expression of that story. And that's the reason you know, Sam came on board, you know, we just found that the idea was cool, and we wanted to work on it. But as I was facing those, you know, the struggle to get funded, like, there was a little voice in my head, that was trying to make Wemba a bit more commercial, you know, what I mean, like, bit more sellable. And I really hated that, like that thought even came into my mind, like, you know, because I'm feeling the pressure to get funded, like, so I'm, I'm, I'm trying to see if I'm okay with selling it over, you know, and I think that that would have been more unfortunate than not making it completely. And so I am really grateful that this worked out this way.
Phil 34:07
That's interesting. I think, like maybe a question to jump off of that is something you had talked about kind of near the top of the show with balloon man. You were talking about how like, you kind of were working on Blue Mountain to Sam, and then you sent him a text message for this, what would eventually be then, but, and it kind of sounds like you all switched gears. But I'd love to kind of maybe just zero in on that moment. Because I imagine like that's, it could be a hard decision. They'd be like, Hey, we're just gonna drop this project that we've been working on and start this new thing. Like, what was that? What was that like? Or what were those conversations? Like?
Abhi 34:43
It was hard. It was definitely hard because there's a meme and like, among game developers that the project you want to start, like the idea that you get while you're working on your current project is always more pressing, you know, like you always want to and then you also We always want to start and like my unity, the engine that I use, if I open it, there's like untitled project 1234. And then there's like, balloon, but like, you know, it comes across a path of that project. So, when I started balloon when I told them, we are we are releasing this no matter what, you know. And, and, but the idea, I think, for when but it was just it was so exciting for us that it killed the excitement verbal and and it's very unfortunate. Like, you know, and I still think you know, below magic great idea. And I might make it at some point, you know, but it like, it was clear that, you know, Sam wanted to work on it, it was clear that I wanted to work on it. So yeah, it was a very hard decision. And like, we had this little club where we would show off our side projects, and we were all taken on each other kind of thing. Like I dreaded the day where I had to go in and say, Hey, by the way, I'm shelving blown. And it was a big grown from everybody. Yeah, it wasn't something easy to do, for sure. But in retrospect, it ended up being the right decision, I think,
Ben 36:12
can we maybe circle back a little bit to the game itself? You know, one of the things that we were kind of noticing is taking the parents perspective. Can you talk about why?
Abhi 36:24
Yeah, um, I think I think it has to do with the fact that both Sam and I are, like, first generation immigrants, and we are like, I wouldn't consider myself like, fully assimilated, I am to the point where I can go back home, and I can fit right in. Like, they can tell that, you know, I grew up in Canada for most of my life, or any of those things, right. So maybe it's those values, still, which, but in general, there's a lot of media here, especially immigrant media, that focuses on like, oh, the kid is growing up, and he has a, he has a life at home, and he has to leave it out of it. And, you know, or, you know, they have to balance two different languages or things like that, or the dealing with parents expectations and stuff like that, right. But to me, I felt the story of, of a parent who, you know, comes at a, you know, who approached their life, from back home at a time when it's not, it's not easy to start over, you know, and they're coming to a completely strange, completely foreign country. And, you know, they can speak the language, and a lot of times their social circle is very confined to the family itself. You know, it's a huge risk that they take and, and as a result of that, sometimes they might put expectations on their kid, right? And I felt like that perspective, like, what are their actual challenges? What are they actually thinking about? Not just from a perspective of how it affects the kid, but like, you know, what are their dreams and things like that, right. So I felt like that story wasn't told often enough, or, or at all. And, to me, like, the, that's what bothered me quite a bit, especially for me, sometimes it's heartbreaking to see the parent, not even being able to communicate with their, with their child, because of the language gap, right? Like, I see it again, and again, here, like, you know, the kid is born and they're at home, they speak Tamil, or whatever language you know, they're exposed to. But as soon as they go to school, they pick up English and then they, they slowly start to forget grammar, and then they start speaking English at home. Which is fine if the parents know English, but if they don't, like forever, your communication with your parents is always true. Like a broken language, right. So to me, I found that very tragic. And that's sort of what I want to explore.
Ben 39:04
Yeah, how are you? You know, in your own life, thinking about I guess, like keeping your culture alive, keeping that connection to your parents live? And then I don't know if you, you know, have kids, or if you're planning to have kids at some point, but then how do you also think about passing that on and keeping that you know, those bonds strong?
Abhi 39:23
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really wonder, like, right now, I'm 28 right now. So at this point, like, it's, I think, I'm entering a point of life where it's our turn to now take care of our parents. Like that kind of thing. Like, that's a very, you know, maybe Eastern kind of philosophy. But to me, it was a I don't know if it's because I grew up watching a lot of movies and music, listening to music from back home, but I felt I was always really rooted in our culture. But the main character of the game, like, the kid from the game, is the complete opposite of he's like some of my friends here, who's who's completely assimilated, you know. So, for me, I had to think about, you know, it's also very easy to just say, Oh, it's wrong to do that. And, you know, you should keep in touch with your thoughts and stuff. It's really easy to do that. But I also want to explore why, you know, kids who growing up here, why do they feel a pressure to, you know, assimilate, you know, what are they trying to get away from, you know, so, for me, like, for me, it is a balance, for sure, like, I did have to strike a balance, it came easier to me a lot of other people struggle with it. When I have kids, I don't know, I definitely want them. To know, a lot of this, you know, I want them to know about the movies, and the music was in our histories and things like that. But part of me also feels it's wrong to force that on them. You know, when they're growing up in a society where, you know, there are other things that they're much more exposed to, you know, so yeah, I don't I don't know.
Ben 41:10
I don't know when Yeah, no, it's fine. And I, you know, I'm also thinking about like, when, because obviously, this game is so rooted in the connective tissue here, between these relationships can be the food. And I'm wondering when that maybe that aha moment was for you. Or if there was one, I'm thinking, you know, recently, so I, when I started dating my current girlfriend, she's vegan, and I like to cook a lot. And so for the first time, I was like, Oh, I, there's so many of my recipes that I just like, can't cook. And I think it was the first moment where I was like, Oh, this is so central to our relationship, like what you're eating with someone, what you're doing with someone, you know, the foods that you're making, and the food that you're consuming together is a pretty cornerstone to the relationship. And so I'm wondering, you know, was there a moment of aha, we were like this, is this, this? Is this connection between my parents? Or was that always there?
Abhi 42:08
Um, yeah, so it makes sense for me, because, like, like, I spoke about the language barrier, that's, that's there between the parent and the child, especially a mother and her child, right. So in, in a lot of Eastern culture, and, you know, maybe, you know, across the world, traditionally, like, like, a lot of the expectation is that the, the mother has to cook and, and she has, you know, and a lot of them try to put a lot of their love into the food and, and that's why, at least back home, and back home, especially in the older days, they will be crushed, you know, and you don't come home for dinner, or like it would be, and I always wondered, like, why is that right? Like, and that's because, you know, they were like this is, for better or for words, you know, they're given that role to perform. And, like for them, that's the way they try to communicate a lot of things and I thought, in a game like Rambo where the language barrier is broken, the only language she does have left to communicate with her son is like, it's like food, right? So she's doubling down on that a lot more. So to me, it made it was always part of the core idea, like how else would it work? Right?
Phil 43:24
Yeah. That's, I love that. I mean, in terms of like, the game, then is, does most of it take place in the kitchen? And you're doing the recipes? Are there like kind of sequences where we're seeing like the family and other places, like at the school lunch room or whatnot? Like, hi, guys, how, what is the kind like the general flow of ABA?
Abhi 43:50
Yeah, um, so, um, what happens is that, at any given particular level, there comes a reason for these characters to cook a certain dish. And that reason is contextualized in the narrative, sometimes it's in the home and sometimes it's, you know, other things. And, and then they hopefully it's natural, the way it's contextualized. And, you know, when they cook that certain dish, you know, it leads to other things, right. So that's how we have done it. So for example, one one example I can tell you right now is that I think the second level is where, you know, the family friend celebrate something and the this the son who's like six years old at the time, he wants to order pizza and he's saying no to any of the foods that you know, she wants to cook instead. And she's a she's a teacher. And she is really good at like, you know, getting kids to learn even when they don't want to No. And so she kind of uses that skill here to like, say, oh, you know, there's this dish we make, you know, making it, it looks like launching the rocket ship. And, and that really gets his curiosity and he's like, Oh, it does. And so she sort of like, almost manipulated him into, like, getting this curiosity of like, she's trying to sell him his own culture, you know, like, get him interested in that kind of stuff. So, and then they're like, and then the family comes together and they cook that dish. And he, he's his mind is blown by. And he's very excited about it. And like, that makes them really happy. Yeah, so. So that is, I think that would be one example.
Phil 45:41
That's really interesting. You know, when we talk when he talked to him, something that I thought was really resonant that he brought up was, you know, when he's working with his team, he always asks everybody that he's working with, like, what is a game or a piece of media, where they first felt like they are represented, and I might be butchering exactly how he phrases it. But that's kind of like what he was getting at. I'm curious, especially with games, because I look at a game like Venmo. And I don't think there's really anything like it. I'm curious, like for you, how has that played out? Like, has there been any other kinds of games where you felt represented? Or when it was the first time you felt represented? Yeah,
Abhi 46:23
um, for me, I think, because I grew up. So rooted in my culture, for me, that was never too much of an issue. Because we have an entire movie industry where I can feel represented from back home, and I primarily watch movies and music from there. So I have no problems with with that, and I think, but I'll say this for me, I think, traditionally, I feel represented, and stories that are not necessarily you know, about me or my race or ethnicity or culture, right, I think. And I hope, I hope, you know, for member like we were trying to touch upon. Yeah, it's tricky to phrase this on my favorite film director, he, he said something, the more local you are, the more international you become. And, and, and I think that's true. And I think like, even though vember is a game that is about such a specific family, and such a specific culture and time period, and stuff like that, I think, the hope is that, you know, if we say that very genuinely, and stay true to that story, you know, anybody can, you know, feel relate to it or feel, you know, feel seen in it. And, and I think that's the, you know, that's the role of art, you know, it's like, unfortunately, for me, like, I think human beings are very clumsy at communicating. And instead of, you know, telling somebody directly, we have to make a whole movie or a game and hope that, you know, when they play, they can feel what I'm trying to feel right. So,
Ben 48:04
yeah, no, I think that's so true. And that the specificity that the almost the quirks of the game sometimes are the things that that you resonate with. And that gets you there to, to kind of really feel like you're invested in it. I yeah, I feel very deeply.
Phil 48:23
Well, I mean, I feel like, you know, I'd love to just talk a little bit about like, what are what are you playing or watching or doing when you're when you're not, you know, developing this game, which I'm sure it takes up all of your all here. But
Abhi 48:39
yeah, I'm trying to be more healthy about it for sure. What am I playing? Recently, I played the Forgotten city, which I really enjoyed a lot. It was a great, great game. Another game that I recently beat was the outer Wilds it goes Okay, deal. Yeah. Beautiful, fantastic game. And very depressing. Because very depressing. It's depressing to me in a in another way. Because when I play it, I'm like, I can never make again. That's kind of like, I'm just, yeah, it's really talented team behind it. But recently, it's been hard for me to find time to play games or watch movies and stuff like that, like I find that I watched the office just reruns of it more than anything else. It's a short 20 minute break. That's interesting.
Phil 49:40
I wonder, you know, so my background is in creative writing. I went to like grad school and taught taught writing for a number of years and I find that whenever I read a book now it's such like a much slower and, like methodical process because I'm just constantly like thinking like how they made it and I so I still relate to what you're saying? Or like you were like read a book or something where you're like, Damn, I'm never gonna be able to make something that's good. I'm curious if that's like the same for you now with games when you play them? Are you kind of like, constantly thinking like, how is this made? Or? What?
Abhi 50:15
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think for games, that's always been the case. And even movies, too. I think, I think a lot about like, you know, how do they even come up with that? Or like, if I laugh at a line, like, you know, how did they start with the joke first, or did they arrive it organically? You know, those kinds of thoughts? For sure. Yeah.
Ben 50:36
I think this just must be the curse of the kind of creative brain where it's like, Wait, how did they do that? And then it kind of ruins the moment of enjoying it. Because you're like, I have to deconstruct like, how this was put together? Yeah.
Abhi 50:46
Yeah. Especially for games, right? Like, I think a friend of mine is like a Technical Artist. watching him play the game was the worst experience because he runs up to like walls. He looks at it very closely. He's like, Oh, do we just get on with the game?
Ben 51:06
I think we're out of questions. Except one, there was one thing I wanted to ping you just because there's been so much. I've been seeing this kind of pop off, like conversations around. Things like Xbox games pass, and how that might be impacting indie developers. And so I just kind of wanted to see like, What's your perspective on? Things like this, this model is like this, that give people access to a lot of games. But you know, are they good? Actually, for creators?
Abhi 51:32
Yeah, I'm a bit off book by the recent Netflix cancellations. And I think that's a little bit relevant to what we're seeing in games also. Because the, you know, this is about like services, or our platform is growing really fast, and trying to show that they have the highest catalog and stuff like that. So when they're in a growing phase, they just fund games left and right, you know, and that's great. But they're not able to keep it up. And then they they cut as ruthlessly as they as they grow, you know. So I am a bit we are, you know, there is a lot of indie games, and there's a lot of competitions, and you know, some companies do a really good job of it. And I think, for a lot of Indies, these kinds of deals are the only way that games can get made. So I think it's very important also, but I am cautiously optimistic is yeah, this is where I'm at right now. Yeah.
Phil 52:32
Yeah, it's it kind of seems like, you know, in our first season, we talked to Neil Jones, who made this game called never yield. And at the time, it felt like that game pass was a little bit more of a hopeful vibe, and an industry that now is what I guess a year, year, almost two years ago, and it definitely feels like the tables have turned a bit and a lot of people, including myself have become more like EA. I don't know, I don't know if this is going to shake out how we want it to
Abhi 53:03
be. One thing is, one thing I find about the gaming industry is that I think Unlike movies, or music, and like indie games are always because maybe it's because people can just make it at their homes if they wanted to, you know, like if I were to make a movie, like I need support, like, you know, I need a huge crew or whatever. Like, even if I make a short or small, right, it's not easy to make. But it's very easy to make a small game if you want to write. So sometimes my, my dystopian fears are like, you know, there's only streaming services like stadia, for example, that, that running the entire gamut, and then only they get to decide what games get made. And, you know, and but even if we reach that point, you know, people can just always disconnect and make their own game and put it on some server. You know, like, because the tools or making games are always in our hands. I feel a bit more optimistic about the video game industry compared to like, the movies or other other industries.
Ben 54:12
Is there something we haven't asked you about this game or about this process? Or about something that's in your head that you were you want to say or you think is important to say?
Abhi 54:22
No, I just want to reiterate that, you know, having mentors like Aika was make or break for us. So you know, I think that's extremely important. And I hope you know, I can I can be just as much help to others as it has been to me and it was really heartening to see that kind of help throughout the industry around the indie space. Yes, I'm very grateful for that.
Phil 54:51
Yeah, I he he even kind of extended some, some help and advice to us too. And yeah, it's really Yeah, like you're saying I mean, it's seems like a really great person in that regard. And I think a lot like you're saying in the indie space, in general, I just feel like there's so much of like a welcoming energy to, like, prop each other up or, like, provide the resources. And, you know, I think coming coming from, like, for myself, like coming from, like, an academic background where, you know, my professors were, like, really old and like, kind of out of, like, you know, they like how the industry works, I always was, was starved for, like, how do I, like make a career out of this thing that I'm this creative thing that I'm studying. And it's, it's, it's really nice to hear like, at least in the game space, there are people who are like forging that path. And the major way is,
Ben 55:40
thank you so much for taking the time and coming to talk to us. Yeah, no
Abhi 55:44
problem. Thank you so much for having me.
Ben 55:45
Yeah, we really appreciate it.
Phil 55:58
And that was our conversation with Abby of the size studios about his new game vember a narrative cooking game. And yeah, this was such a fun conversation, I think, especially after the heels of our conversation with Erica from outer loop games. One thing that, you know, we've continued to harp on this season, is that idea of the reality of the dream. And, you know, when we were setting up this interview with abi, it's like I was telling him about about that. And he's like, Well, that rings so true to what my life is like right now. And it was so interesting to hear his his story about like, finally being able to go full time into game development. And I don't know Is this like a really like hopeful and an awesome thing to hear and hear somebody speak so excited about it?
Ben 56:50
Yeah, and I think on the one hand, like, it's super important to, to elevate and like talk to people who are like, it's been difficult, and it continues to be difficult. I think it's important for people because it's like, we're, you know, one of the things we've talked about in the past is like, it's important to give people the real context that it's like a lot of people do continue to struggle or continue to have to try to balance the art stuff they're trying to do with the work life that they they need to have in order to pay the bills, all that all the kind of caveats aside. It's just nice to hear someone who is like, kind of pulled it off and been able to go full time into, you know, doing the thing that they like, want to do and love doing.
Phil 57:29
Yeah, and even the stuff about, I want to say early in the conversation, Avi talks about how you know, Venmo was recently featured in the Tribeca festival as one of the featured games alongside thirsty suitors, which we talked about in our last episode. And how that was such a surprising thing. Like he never would have imagined that not only would they be featured, but that people would even be interested enough to talk about the game on like Twitter and stuff like that. And it just rings. So true to me thinking about some of our previous episodes, like with Neal Jones, for instance, like, I think I'll be does a good job of acknowledging that, yeah, he's finally reached this position of like, being able to go full time and it took a lot of hard work and dedication, but like, at the end of the day, there's a lot of luck involved. And I think Neil also kind of echoed that, like, obviously, he's really proud of never yield, but it's like, he just happened to be the one that it's getting elevated. And there's so many other people who are doing interesting things who aren't and like, that's just kind of the nature of things. So I liked I like to be kept it real in that regard.
Ben 58:37
Yeah. 100%
Phil 58:41
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that this conversation really speaks for itself. Again, it was super, super fun to talk to avi about Venza. And you know, I think it's the first if I remember correctly for origin story, where we're talking to people who the project isn't out yet, so if anything, it just kind of makes me more excited to check out the game. I don't have a firm release date on when it is but I think it's supposed to come out later this year. And you know, if you wanted to learn more about it, you can just go to Vemma game.com which is V NBA game.com as well as their Twitter which is at Venza game. Yeah, friend, where can we find find out more about you.
Ben 59:29
You can find more about me at sad underscore radio underscore Ladd, you can also shoot us an email and again, I think as Phil mentioned at the top, we're looking for more people to talk to who you'd be interested in hearing from hit us up at V origin story pod@gmail.com. You can also visit our websites which is beautiful by the way origin story dot show or tweet at us at origin story underscore
Phil 59:55
and once again, we just want to thank Ryan Hopper who As the awesome intro and outro music that you hear each episode of origin story, as well as melody Hirsch, for all the design work that she did for not only the website, but also our cover art, and all of our social media assets. So we really appreciate that. And yeah, as always, we'd love to hear from y'all. So, let us know what you think about the episode and we will be back here again next time for our next conversation on origin story.
